|
Post by Admin Horan on May 17, 2021 9:42:27 GMT -6
In 1969, you have a mad scramble among several Mafia "families" over the LA territory, which is suddenly up for grabs. You have Tex Watson, Danny DeCarlo, Billy Doyle, Tom Harrigan, Charles Tacot, Geno Massaro, Joel Rostau, Voytek Frykowski, Jay Sebring, Leno LaBianca, Rosemary LaBianca, Rosemary's own kids, the Black Panther Party, the Nation of Islam, and every Hollyweird popcorn pimp on the Left Coast aaaaaallllll playing every end against the middle, trying carve out a piece of the LA pie. A lot of acid gets dropped, a lot of lead gets thrown around, a lot of knives get sharpened, and a lOT of lies get told in the media about it all.
In 1976, you have a mad scramble among not only the "Five Families," but every other popcorn-pimping Mafia boss on the Garlic Coast over the NYC territory, which is suddenly up for grabs. (You remember who "won" that one--Gotti.) You have Gambino, Gotti, et al, plus plus plus, playing every end against the middle, trying to carve out a slice of the York pizza pie. A lot of coke gets snorted, a lot of lead gets thrown around, a lot of knives get sharpened, and a LOT of lies get told in the media about it all.
|
|
ace
Full Member
Posts: 184
|
Post by ace on May 17, 2021 10:08:34 GMT -6
I don't see one single solitary reason to assume that Carl's shooter was a woman. You might as well conclude JFK was shot by a woman. I'm basing it on Maury and Carl's research. I believe Kevin Murphy did his own research as well.
The Mafia was not above doing business with gays, they'd shake down a gay nightclub just as soon as they'd shake down any other. What I'm saying is one look at those three goobers and the deal is off unless they planned to whack them soon after to tie up loose ends.
I'm not discounting 100% a potential mafia tie. Quite the opposite, in my last post I posited a potential link between the cult and the Mob in the Levenda quote. But how would that work? Well, the three amigos are a non-starter, for reasons I have stated.
Susan Conway was said to have not been at all the murders, but knew about them in real time. Why would she need to know in real time? As a liaison, perhaps, it would be in her best interest.
|
|
ace
Full Member
Posts: 184
|
Post by ace on May 17, 2021 10:17:56 GMT -6
Hmmm... ”I was a friend of Herman Slater of the old Warlock Shop in Brooklyn Heights before it moved to Manhattan and became Magickal Childe. I've been waiting for this documentary on the Magickal Childe/Warlock Shop to come out. Here is the trailer below.
Check out the interesting topic being discussed at the 2:33 mark:
Those shops are such a massive slab of red meat for SoS investigators. I can't prove anybody met up with anybody there, but if I were to guess, let's say you're new in town and you want to find out where the action and potential talent lies...
|
|
mike23
Junior Member
Posts: 57
|
Post by mike23 on May 17, 2021 12:00:48 GMT -6
Yes the Warlock shop was definitely the place to be if you were into the dark arts.As CBGBs was for the punk/new wave scene,the Warlock shop was to the occult crowd.If you wanted a certain level of "street cred" in the occult it was the place to see and be seen.I don't think its a stretch to assume lots of information was shared there as well as alliances or networks formed based on mutual interests. I can imagine the Processan Brother Ken meeting his future "girlfriend" Susette Rodriguez there on say a Thursday afternoon.They really hit it off,and Susette tells him about the lovely group in Westchester she belongs to.She invites him to the meeting to be held that night in Yonkers and he initially is hesitant because The Process doesn't get involved with such things.Susette wears him down and its off to Untermyer!Well,it could have happened that way!
|
|
ace
Full Member
Posts: 184
|
Post by ace on May 17, 2021 12:09:06 GMT -6
The Process doesn't get involved with such things. The thing I find extremely annoying, and that Process doc has it in spades, is the notion that nobody in the group was inclined to take their chaos and destruction bit to it's logical conclusion. Ohh, it got so boring at times and we didn't even know what the Process really was. Oh yeah, try reading your own literature.
|
|
mike23
Junior Member
Posts: 57
|
Post by mike23 on May 17, 2021 13:25:12 GMT -6
I'm with you Ace!I've never been what you would call an "All Process,All the time" guy,and so I often thought Maury grasped a little ,or a lot with his "coast to coast conspiracy" angle.However,I also thought it was wrong to dismiss altogether out of hand,any involvement ,whether small or otherwise,of NY Process involvement.They could of perhaps just been on the periphery of the Westchester group,maybe hanging out together,exchanging ideas,consulting with them if you will.I don't know.I fully believe the Westchester group was around minimum since the 1950s because an older relative of mine,in say about 1980,told me that while working a summer job in the mid-fifties,a co-worker of his told him that he was a member of a group,he just said,"group",that had meetings at Untermyer park,where they drank,got laid,and talked to the devil.The teen invited my relative to a meeting,my relative declined.A week or two later ,summer ended and he never saw the guy again.Was it a different group from "ours", maybe,I don't know how many such groups were operating,but that always stuck with me.Many people,older,told me it was common knowledge at least in Southern Westchester something was going on there.
Anyway,my point is I don't believe The Process orchestrated this,as in ran it,but could they have had an influence?Its possible.Some facts should be looked at 1.The Process is believed to have arrived in NY in 1970 2.They establish Eastern Headquarters ,not in NYC,but in the Bedford/Pound ridge area.Westchester?hmm,maybe they got a good " Real Estate" deal because then as now its one of the wealthiest areas in the country.I believe this is in 1972. 3.Brother John Paul.Here,you either believe him or you don't.He says he cut contact with the Westchester group in 1968.1972 he runs into John Carr who tells B.J.P a new more violent leadership has taken over,emphasis on blood sacrifice,etc.B.J.P gets out of NYC in 1973.So does this mean the new leaders were Process?of course not.Its just that the timeline makes Process involvement possible. 4.The Degrimstons marriage breaks up in 1974.I'm just speculating here but could there have been some kind of civil war in the NY Process leadership?You know,those standing with her and those standing with him and maybe some rogues running off to find a new home with another established group in the area?I don't know but I wonder.
So in nutshell,I believe these attacks were the "baby" of the 22 Disciples of He'll,but could a Process influence,also "rock the cradle"? I say its possible if even a small rocking.
And for the record,I do believe the Lauria and Freund murders were contract hits.I do believe the Westchester leadership dealt in guns,drugs,and porn.They would definitely take a call from the mob and conduct business transactions.Criminals work with criminals.
|
|
|
Post by Admin Horan on May 17, 2021 13:34:07 GMT -6
Well, the Process obviously recruited heavily from among established Crowleyite/Rosicrucian/Mystical Christian/blah, blah, blah. So if there is a Process connection to say, Mr Real Estate, that could go back 30 or 40 years, since a lot of Process members came from older cults. Jon has a lot of info on cults in the Rochester area going back to the 1800s. At least.
And remember, the "Burned Over District" revival movement in upstate NY that grew straight out of the Second Great Awakening, was HEAVILY into Swedenborg. Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, ALL copied page after page of Swedenborg (available English translations) verbatim. The seeds of Gnosticism were planted looooooooong before the "Process Church of the blah, blah, blah" came to town.
|
|
ace
Full Member
Posts: 184
|
Post by ace on May 17, 2021 21:48:20 GMT -6
I'm with you Ace!I've never been what you would call an "All Process,All the time" guy,and so I often thought Maury grasped a little ,or a lot with his "coast to coast conspiracy" angle.However,I also thought it was wrong to dismiss altogether out of hand,any involvement ,whether small or otherwise,of NY Process involvement.They could of perhaps just been on the periphery of the Westchester group,maybe hanging out together,exchanging ideas,consulting with them if you will.I don't know. Maury Terry was not allowed to be wrong or misled or mistaken about anything. And, ya know, there was a perfectly logical reason to publish a Manson essay in a Process magazine- to freak out the "gray forces", regular people who have enough to worry about with mortgages and bills to pay.
Oh shit. I've always been interested in spooky stuff so I might have been tempted, especially when I was a teenager. Plus, drunk and laid? Deal!
I was reading up earlier and it seems Robert got the Satan in the divorce, but history is written by the winners and the revisionist history especially seems to favor Mary Ann.
If all we had was Berkowitz ID'ing "Ken from Australia", I'd chalk it up to fellow travelers or whatever but we have a second Process member, Brother Ed, going to Canada with Susan Conway to meet with some militant kooks up there. Maybe Robert DeGrimston never slammed a creepy looking cane on the ground and demanded the Process to kill, but Process members sure had an interest in the Untermyer crew.
Keith Richards also had a place in Westchester in the late 70's. He was usually on tour so his girlfriend Anita, a drug addict and practitioner of the Black Arts, had the run of the place. Some hooded figures ran people off the property one night and scorch marks were noted. This was in a book by Keith's sidekick/dealer "Spanish" Tony who made no mention of Son of Sam. What a coincidence.
P.S. (for everyone)
Didn't "Billy the Artist" name a "Zoltan" at Untermyer? Because there was a fucking Zoltan who ran an occult bookstore.
Scroll about halfway down under "Mason's Bookstore"
|
|
mike23
Junior Member
Posts: 57
|
Post by mike23 on May 17, 2021 22:37:20 GMT -6
Ace,great post!Yeah that home of Keith Richard's was in South Salem,Ny,north east Westchester county.In TUE ,the informant,Vinny,says an abandoned church in Salem or Brewster served as "eastern headquarters" for the group,according to Berkie.
Wow!Your finding Zoltan Mason,great work.Google his image,2 photos of him,and one especially,in his Masons outfit bears a resemblance to our,AHH,to me at least.Could Billy the artist be right about the name and confused who it belonged to?Zoltan died in 2002,but Billy was identifying a body in 1996 as Zoltan/ Moloch.Maybe both these guys were in Untermyer!
|
|
|
Post by Admin Horan on May 18, 2021 7:58:48 GMT -6
What evidence of any kind is there that "a woman shot Carl Denaro?" Maury's "research?" What research? Third-hand hearsay? Because that's all Maury's book is. Third-hand hearsay. Wheat Carr is the sister of John Carr and Michael Carr. Therefore, she shot Carl?
It is possible for a man to shoot and miss, you know. If Carl is telling the truth, and he told me the same story last year, and police did find shell casings (.45 caliber) at the scene, then what connection is there to the ".44 caliber" shootings? Besides third-hand hearsay? If Carl AND Rosemary AND the neighbors, who aaaallll said they didn't hear any shots, told the truth (and I would not bet my own money on that) then the shooter may have used some kind of "silencer." And that rules out both revolvers, and magnum-type loads. A "silencer" only works if the rounds are subsonic. So, you don't need any "inexperienced weak wristed woman" to explain any "evidence." Because none of the evidence points to a connection to any of the other shootings--except, Lomino/Demasi, where police ALSO found .45 caliber shell casings.
Do you understand the difference between shaping theories to fit facts, instead of facts to fit theories? The difference is, 40 plus years of getting nowhere in these cases, and breaking these cases. Chasing rumors of a "cult" going around taking turns shooting all these "random" victims with a ".44 Bulldog" just doesn't fit the real facts. SOME of these shootings involved .44/.45 revolver(s.) (In real life, it's not always easy to tell the difference between a .44 slug and .45. IF you recover a slug INTACT, you can weigh it, and that helps narrow it down. But in some of these cases, the slugs had splintered, etc.) In SOME of these shootings, survivor and witness descriptions of people resemble Berkowitz/Glassman. Some of the shootings don't. Etc etc etc.
Is it POSSIBLE the shooter in the Denaro case was a woman? Sure. Is there any evidence of any kind--beyond third-hand, anonymous rumors of a "cult"--that it was a woman? No. Is there any actual evidence of any kind that Carl's shooting had ANYTHING to do with, say, Lauria, or Freund? No. Lomino/Demasis, maybe.
We can't even prove "Mr Real Estate" actually exists, let alone whether he ordered some gang of cult members to take some broad to Carl's neighborhood and shoot the first parked car she came across. Oh, we can look at "people" like Alfred Hunt Howell and say, "He fits all the anonymous third-hand rumors!" Okay. AHH ordered Carl Denaro shot--but the catch was, the shooter had to be a woman, and if she missed, well, that's just how the Satanic communion wafer crumbles. Okay, so maybe AHH was the granddaddy of a cult that didn't care about actually hitting "random" victims. But, why would all those "random" victims turn out, in real life, not Maury's book, REAL LIFE, to be tied to the Mafia or Mafia dominated "businesses?" When AHH is clearly making most of his fortune laundering Mafia money? I don't get it. I mean, I do get it. Evidence is boring. But...evidence is what cracks cases. Not comic stories about "cults."
Maury's story is very entertaining. There might be a kernel of truth to it, somewhere. But no one can find any actual evidence that any of it is actually true. Including Maury. All Maury had was rumors. From a bunch of habitual liars.
The funny thing is, there is ONE rumor in Maury's book that turns out to actually have corroborating evidence. Maury never found the evidence, but it exists. The rumor that these murders--and others--had something to do with a plain old, Mafia-style heroin/arms trafficking/money-laundering/porno-blackmail sex ring. That, plus the wipeout of a plus-sized Hollyweird voodoo sexpot--a sort of "fat black Sharon Tate," if you will. THOSE rumors have been corroborated. With evidence. Evidence that really does prove (along with other evidence that it led to) that all of these megacases--"Zodiac," "Manson," "Son of Sam," others--ARE all linked--to the Mafia/CIA. Are some of the victims, witnesses, suspects, etc, "Satanists?" Apparently. And a lot of them are Catholic. Some are Jews. Some are commies. (Believe it or not, the commies have a LOT to do with "Manson." As we shall see in the coming weeks.)
Somebody refresh my memory--what, exactly, happened after Carlo Gambino died? Nothing happened? Grammauta and Gotti and the rest of the cement heads all sat around with their thumbs up their asses doing absolutely nothing? Year after year after year? Because here's a fun fact--between 1945 and 1985, not one, single, solitary Mafia-related murder happened in the NYC metropolitan area. Who replaced Anastasia and his "Murder Inc" after Anastasia died peacefully in his sleep in the barber chair in the Sheraton Park Plaza hotel? Nobody. There were no more mob hits in NYC after Anastasia died.
And certainly not in the mid 1970s. The 1970s were a golden age of peace and totally legal business activity for the nonexistent NYC Mafia. I mean, anybody who thinks the wipeout of the DeFeo family in 1974 had ANYTHING to do with his actual, bona fide, for real, actually, proven, mob-MADE uncle Peter DeFeo, the guy who "retired" Genovese for Costello, anybody who believes that kind of nonsense deserves to have holes in his head. Just ask the "police." The day Ronnie DeFeo Jr told them it was a mafia hit, and even named the hitman, the police wisely held a press conference to declare, at the top of their lungs, that the Mafia had NOTHING to do with it, so don't even ask.
Clearly, it is simply not possible that the Mafia, who have nothing whatsoever to do with narcotics, weapons, prostitution, pornography, money laundering, stolen cars/car parts, labor unions, and murder--clearly, it is simply not possible that they had ANYTHING to do with any mafia-style execution type shootings involving people clearly tied to those activities. Not in New York. Not in the 1970s.
And here's another thing--no NYC area cop, reporter, or DA, high or low, would EVER lie to to the public or the media about a murder in order to cover up for the Mafia. Would they lie to cover up for some comic book Satanic cult they never heard of? Of course. But, they would never lie for the Mafia. Never. Not even hyping some fake news about some comic book "Satanic Murder Cult" to cover up for the Mafia.
First, the cops scream, "No connection!" Why? To cover up for this comic book "cult?" Then, they scream, "This Devil Worshipping Lunatic did it all!" They even published "letters" from this "cult" member, just to convince the public that this cult never existed, and didn't commit these murders. Why? To cover up for this comic book "cult?" Makes perfect sense to me. And when reporters (even before Maury) started turning up clues that Berkowitz had accomplices/co-conspirators with possible ties to the Mafia, cops and DAs covered it up--to protect the "cult." NOT the Mafia. Cops and DAs and newspeople NEVER cover up for the Mafia. ONLY for comic book Satanic cults they never heard of. Nobody else. And DEFINITELY not the Mafia. Never.
And for once, just once, those poor, pitiful, picked-on paisanos, who never hurt a fly, weren't "framed" for any of these murders. How lucky can you get?
But we know one thing for sure--the Mafia had NOTHING to do with any of the "Son of Sam" murders. So, it's pointless to even look.
|
|
|
Post by Admin Horan on May 18, 2021 8:19:48 GMT -6
I'm not saying you guys have been wasting your time. Your time and efforts have been WELL spent--ruling out what's not true is the most important step to getting to what IS true. If you guys--and I mean this sincerely--if you guys, all of you "Buckaroos," if you guys can't prove Maury right, then I don't think Maury was right. Not all together right, anyway. And without your help, ALL of you, we could not have cracked this "case of cases."
But we have cracked it, to a great extent. These megacases ARE directly connected. Not through some cult network. Just the good ol' boy CIA/Mafia network. It's not even surprising. It's the simplest explanation--and we can PROVE it.
And yeah, some of them are/were involved in weird cult stuff. But that's not the concrete link between them.
|
|
|
Post by justiceseeker on May 18, 2021 9:18:28 GMT -6
Guess my posts (the mysteriously disappeared ones and all) should come with a trigger warning...
|
|
|
Post by Omega on May 18, 2021 10:59:01 GMT -6
Your time and efforts have been WELL spent--ruling out what's not true is the most important step to getting to what IS true. "Truer words were never more spoken......."
Especially true with any of these high profile true crime cases that involve a wide variety of conspiracy theories - Son of Sam, Manson, Zodiac, etc.
Eliminating the nonsense and the BS, is just as important as getting to the bottom of the truth.
|
|
|
Post by Admin Horan on May 18, 2021 13:40:46 GMT -6
Well, I realize that I have not shown you guys everything yet. That's because of my childish delight in stunning my friends and enemies with their own homework.
There's something to all this cult jazz. No doubt about it. But it's not the main thing. It's a side thing. The Mafia is a MAIN thing. It literally links all these cases together. But, the Mafia aren't really all that into Satanism, blah, blah, blah.
But not only the Mafia. The Main Thing is, certain people in/from the CIA, as well as their longtime associates in the Mafia...The Main Thing turns out to be Mafia plus CIA, OSS, DIA, DEA, etc...
...THEY are the ones behind all this cult jazz. And yes, Buckaroos, we have proven it. As we shall see...
PS In the meantime, speaking of homework, what's the physical description of "Manson II," again?
|
|
|
Post by marionumber1 on May 18, 2021 20:21:52 GMT -6
Can't speak for Professor Horan, but I would say that because this is also an operation with many intelligence operatives in the mix beyond "pure" mob, there are multiple different motives at play. There are the organized crime and contract murder motives, mixed in with a general desire to provoke chaos in society (reminiscent of Operation Gladio), mixed in with some sick fucks at both the lower (Berkowitz, Carr, etc.) and upper echelons (Ron Sisman, Roy Radin, etc.) who actually get off on the violence. While the Son of Sam murders might be a poor excuse for contract killings if contract killing was the only motive, if they were accomplishing several motives at once including but not limited to murder-for-hire then they were quite successful.
|
|