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Post by Omega on May 15, 2021 18:14:55 GMT -6
Was Manson ll Mentzer or the shit-kicker from North Dakota? Was there a Manson II? HA!
Supposedly Mentzer
GV, if you go back a page on this thread, you can click on the latest Josh Zeman audio podcast called "The Children". They discuss the Mentzer/Manson II connection briefly there.
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gv889
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Post by gv889 on May 15, 2021 18:47:03 GMT -6
Omega I did listen to "The Children" Podcast I was always under the impression Mentzer was Manson ll. But I thought somebody said there was a possibility that North Dakota guy could be Manson ll!
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mike23
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Post by mike23 on May 15, 2021 19:36:54 GMT -6
Hey,ace - I shouldn't have confused the "Micki" issue with the Ohio reference.Omega's "Rainbow" comment was more than enough.Sorry .
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Post by justiceseeker on May 15, 2021 19:42:42 GMT -6
Re: "Micki"
If it was in TUE I don't recall, but going over Maury's old Facebook posts it sounds like she could handle a pistol. I might have sympathy for her if she wasn't such an obvious god damn liar. The Mick is a guy
"Somewhere over the rainbow.................."
Yeah, uh...if I meant Devinko, I would probably have said "Micky"... I'm going to stop being discreet from now on...and let the chips fall where they may.
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Post by justiceseeker on May 15, 2021 19:57:31 GMT -6
Yes, Wheat's nickname was "Micki" for some reason...it was also mentioned in several newspaper articles in the aftermath of Berkowitz getting arrested. But check this out...this is kinda funny. twitter.com/harveycarr6?lang=en
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mike23
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Post by mike23 on May 15, 2021 21:08:59 GMT -6
Its a shame Harvey couldn't actually talk!Can you imagine the things he heard and saw living in that house?He definitely knew some interesting characters!His testimony as to his shooting could have been helpful.
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Post by Admin Horan on May 16, 2021 6:59:15 GMT -6
Supposedly, Wheat and John Carr were nicknamed for each other as children. Wheat was "Mickey" and John was "Wheaties." Supposedly. What does that do to solve these murders? Nothing.
I just don't see anything about this supposed "cult" that does anything to solve these murders. Except, it shows us that a lot of people had reasons to cover up something else with some horsehockey about some "cult."
Suppose John Carr did belong to some kind of cult. That tells us nothing about the murder of Donna Lauria. It might tell us something about the faked death of John Carr (well, the death was real. But the John Carr part is apparently fake for some reason.) It might tell us something about the faked death of Craig Glassman. It might tell us something about the mass murder/suicide of Fred Cowan. And so on and on and on.
But--none of that tells us anything about the shootings of Lauria-Valenti, Denaro, Suriani-Esau, Voskerichian, Moskowitz-Violante, Lupo-Placido, Freund...ALL of those, with the possible exception of Lomino-Demasi (two more Sicilian names) look EXACTLY like mafia hits. And it turns out there is an obvious mafia-related motive in each of THOSE cases. And a lot of other murders supposed linked by anonymous jailhouse "sources" look more mafia-related. Pornographers, blackmailers, smugglers, dealers, gamblers, grifters, money launderers, stolen cars/parts, certain labor unions. Standard mafia businesses. The death of Michael Carr looks related to mafia porno/blackmail ops. The Manson murders all have mafia links. Defeo. You name 'em.
Victims and survivors and witnesses not telling police the truth? SOP in mafia related murders. Crooked cops? Mafia. Law enforcement authorities lying to the media about high-profile murders? Mafia. Secret clubs and criminal gangs? Mafia. The mafia are known to hire outside groups, like the Hells Angels, to perform hits, from time to time, when there's too much heat on the usual goombahs. There was a mob civil war going on in NY in the mid-70s. A lot of crossfire. A lot of bringing in outsiders to do some dirty work. Whenever the rock gets turned over, a lot of cockroaches in the police departments and DA's offices have to scramble for cover. Hiring, or at least blaming, some weird acid mumbo jumbo cult family to bump some inconvenient truths worked once in LA. Why wouldn't it work again in NY? Feed some horsehockey to some Robert Graysmith wannabe at the Westchester County Shoppers Weekly, and presto!
Elaine Jacobs/Roy Radin. What does a drug trafficking CIA honeypot have to do with a drug-dealing Hollyweird blackmailer? Radin was the original Jeffrey Epstein. Charles Manson/Jay Sebring. What does a CIA pimp informant have to do with Sinatra's drug trafficking, sexually sadistic Hollyweird blackmailer? Charlie was the original Ghislaine Maxwell. Sharon Tate/Abigail Folger/Leno LaBianca/Jay Sebring. What do two CIA honeypots (one a Hollyweird B-movie sexpot) have to do with a mafia chiseler and a sexually sadistic Hollyweird mafia drug dealer? "Zodiac"/Faraday/Jensen/Ferrin/Mageau/Shepard/Hartnell/Stine. What does a covert CIA narcotics officer have to do with narcotics distribution rings and sexually sadistic snuff films and a "motorcycle" club started by former OSS and Air America veterans?
What do ALL of these murders (and more) blatantly have in common? CIA/Mafia. CIA/Mafia. CIA/Mafia. Plus some gloss-over propaganda disinformation campaign about far-out "death cults."
What do the CIA and the Mafia have in common? Going aaaaaallllll the way back to the OSS and Lucky Luciano? Back even further than that? The exact, detailed answer to that question leads directly to the solution of all these "unsolved" murders.
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gv889
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Post by gv889 on May 16, 2021 14:21:32 GMT -6
Wow my head is spinning........It's now not a question of who's involved but who's not involved.I think Professor Horan has nailed it. Lot's of organized hit's. The Freund case always intrigued me. I once worked with a cop in Harlem and he told me his father was a Detective in the 112th pct during the early to late 70's. His father said that the Freund shooting looked like it was about to be solved, It was a love triangle, blackmail, drug thing with the victims boyfriend possibly dealing coke. The wealthy German woman John Diel was sleeping with looked like she was ready to come clean and fess up but just then Virgina Voskerichian gets shot on her way home from school. Remember the first thing John Diel said when the cops got to the scene of the shooting...."They Shot My Girl"
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Post by marionumber1 on May 16, 2021 14:56:33 GMT -6
Jesus Christ, this is making even less sense now. Just how valuable were these targets? A call girl? One "hot dose" and she don't say nothin' to nobody anymore, you don't need a team to solve that problem. Somebody's step-son? No offense to step-sons, me being one myself, but the last person likely to give a shit about them is probably step-dad.
Or how about, "let's go shoot some people so we can buy up nightclubs". If you've got your blackmail operation down- cops, judges, politicians all in your back pocket, (not to mention your drug dealing, porn, and prostitution rackets) you have figured out there are easier ways to make money than running discos or flipping property.
It can seem like overkill at first glance, but not necessarily. A "simpler" contract murder might have fewer moving pieces, yet it also naturally leads the suspect pool right towards those with personal connections to the victim who would have wanted them dead. Even dosing someone with a hotshot has the chance of raising suspicion among the victim's family and friends if there was no prior hint of drug abuse and/or known trouble in their life before the murder. Dressing deliberate killings up to look like random motiveless murders is a highly effective distraction from the real suspects; especially after the so-called murder spree is widely recognized by the public, and such a killing can be quite easily written off as "just another Sam slaying". Of course it becomes far more incriminating if the truth ever does come out, but considering how many people even today don't accept that Son of Sam wasn't just Berkowitz acting alone, the trade-off probably works out for the most part. There's also a chance that multiple goals were being pursued at once. Beyond just the contract motives, I suspect there was a strategy-of-tension op (like Operation Gladio in Europe) going on to ratchet up fear among the population. I believe Berkowitz was once quoted as such: "Our goal was to create an atmosphere where there's lawlessness and disorder everywhere."
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Post by Omega on May 16, 2021 16:06:31 GMT -6
Wow my head is spinning........It's now not a question of who's involved but who's not involved.I think Professor Horan has nailed it. Lot's of organized hit's. The Freund case always intrigued me. I once worked with a cop in Harlem and he told me his father was a Detective in the 112th pct during the early to late 70's. His father said that the Freund shooting looked like it was about to be solved, It was a love triangle, blackmail, drug thing with the victims boyfriend possibly dealing coke. The wealthy German woman John Diel was sleeping with looked like she was ready to come clean and fess up but just then Virgina Voskerichian gets shot on her way home from school. Remember the first thing John Diel said when the cops got to the scene of the shooting...."They Shot My Girl" If you take Mentzer out of the mix (and I don't believe he was the Freund shooter) and also Berkowitz, the actual Freund shooter's identity is probably the biggest mystery amongst the shooters.
Even Carl Denaro's shooting, which had no witnesses, has 2 or 3 valid suspects for consideration.
I don't know if it is just that Maury sold the "Manson II" angle for so long, that morphed into being Mentzer, that no other suspects in the Freund murder are ever mentioned or discussed.
On another note, as it relates to this shooting, Detective Joe Coffey did find a draft/copy of the letter that Christine Freund wrote to that German woman, threatening to go to the woman's husband about the John Diel affair. Coffey had gotten permission, from Christine's parents, to search her room for any info/leads as to a potential motive and found the draft.
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ace
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Post by ace on May 16, 2021 19:38:58 GMT -6
Jesus Christ, this is making even less sense now. Just how valuable were these targets? A call girl? One "hot dose" and she don't say nothin' to nobody anymore, you don't need a team to solve that problem. Somebody's step-son? No offense to step-sons, me being one myself, but the last person likely to give a shit about them is probably step-dad.
Or how about, "let's go shoot some people so we can buy up nightclubs". If you've got your blackmail operation down- cops, judges, politicians all in your back pocket, (not to mention your drug dealing, porn, and prostitution rackets) you have figured out there are easier ways to make money than running discos or flipping property.
It can seem like overkill at first glance, but not necessarily. A "simpler" contract murder might have fewer moving pieces, yet it also naturally leads the suspect pool right towards those with personal connections to the victim who would have wanted them dead. Even dosing someone with a hotshot has the chance of raising suspicion among the victim's family and friends if there was no prior hint of drug abuse and/or known trouble in their life before the murder. Dressing deliberate killings up to look like random motiveless murders is a highly effective distraction from the real suspects; especially after the so-called murder spree is widely recognized by the public, and such a killing can be quite easily written off as "just another Sam slaying". Of course it becomes far more incriminating if the truth ever does come out, but considering how many people even today don't accept that Son of Sam wasn't just Berkowitz acting alone, the trade-off probably works out for the most part. There's also a chance that multiple goals were being pursued at once. Beyond just the contract motives, I suspect there was a strategy-of-tension op (like Operation Gladio in Europe) going on to ratchet up fear among the population. I believe Berkowitz was once quoted as such: "Our goal was to create an atmosphere where there's lawlessness and disorder everywhere." Overkill, exactly. I think that's why I took a step back, looked at the big picture and threw my hands up. It seems like we have all the pieces we need but there's extra pieces from a different puzzle that are printed in the same colors.
I agree there was a psy-op of some sort at play. Again, just taking a step back and looking at the results. And I'm going to get booed for saying this but I'm not letting go of the Process just yet. Not an offshoot, not a splinter group, the big P. If you want to scare the shit out of people with your "apocalyptic trial", hit the suburbs, nice areas. People take it for granted there's murders on skid row.
Obviously there were contract hits, Freund in particular, but there was going to be killings no matter what. Years ago someone floated the idea that the Dartman attacks were a dry run and I think they have a point. No pun intended.
And by the way, as I should have mentioned above, that's not to shoot down anyone's ideas or theories. I was reading the comment section of a certain blog last night and the comments have just turned to shit lately with a real sense of catty ownership over SoS. If something doesn't make sense to me, that's on me, really.
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Post by Admin Horan on May 17, 2021 7:02:31 GMT -6
Remember--"Zodiac" is the ONLY one of these cases for which we have access to all the original police reports, etc. In Son of Sam, we have ZERO actual police reports, etc. In Manson, we have some, but not all. In Arlis Perry, zero. In DeFeo, zero. In Lake/Ng, zero. And so on. But all these cases look superduper similar. So, what?
In the one case (well, five) "Zodiac," we can see plainly that all the hype was just hype. There's not really much of a mystery after all, and absolute proof that the letters were a hoax of some kind. Created by one of the cops deep inside the investigations. A cop who turns out to be The Number One Draft Pick of the CIA Who Supposedly Never Actually Joined the CIA. A cop who turns out to have friends who DID join the CIA. A cop who used to be a journalist and has friends in journalism. And once we figure that out, and once we figure out that "Manson" is another pea from the same pod, we can crack (you'll see!) once and for all the only real "mystery" in the bunch--the murder of Paul Stine.
And once we do that, we can "crack" the rest of "Manson." And once we do that, we can "crack" Son of Sam. Sort of. Who, exactly, shot whom? That's hard to say, because just like in "Manson" and "Zodiac," the real prime suspects (all of them organized crime thugs involved in narcotics) are suddenly covered for by someone in LE. And part of that cover is a wild three-ring media circus fed by certain key members of law enforcement. Who all have ties to CIA/Mafia. Just. Like. Zodiac.
Yeah, there's a real "Death Cult" tied to a lot of the victims, and a lot of the suspects. But the funny thing is, it's not the key to cracking these cases. CIA/Mafia partnership is the key. The Death Cult plays some role in these "people's" lives. But the actual motive for MURDER seems to be the same old, SOP, involvement in organized crime. Either participating in CIA-connected Mafia business, or in a position to blow the whistle on CIA-connected Mafia business.
If you own an Italian restaurant (or just about any restaurant) here in St Louis, you get everything from olive oil to linens from the mob. Even if you don't know you're buying from the mob. Does that mean you're "in" the mob? No. But if you try to buy from someone else...In New York City in the 1970s, if you are in ANY business, you are doing business with the mob. Was Carl Denaro's family officially "in" the mob? Officially? It doesn't make any difference. His stepfather worked directly under Sicilian Mafia banker Frank Denaro Jr, overseeing the most important division of any investment bank--money laundering markets that includes the traveler's cheques business. It doesn't matter if Carl's stepfather was a "made man" in the Mafia. What matters is, the way the Mafia would send a warning to Carl's stepfather is by going after a member of his family. Why would the Mafia, backed by their old friends in the CIA, want to send a message to Carl's stepfather AND Donna Lauria's mother AND...
The REAL, complete truth about Carl, his biological father, his stepfather, what Carl was doing before he got shot, how he got shot, and how he got that job at Citibank after he got shot, is even more interesting than that. As we shall soon SEE. But it's all about Frank Denaro, the Sicilian Mafia, the Vatican Bank, the CIA, and heroin--and nothing whatsoever to do with any "Death Cult." Even if some of the other murders do have something to do with a "Death Cult."
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ace
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Post by ace on May 17, 2021 8:46:13 GMT -6
Yeah, there's a real "Death Cult" tied to a lot of the victims, and a lot of the suspects. But the funny thing is, it's not the key to cracking these cases. CIA/Mafia partnership is the key. The Death Cult plays some role in these "people's" lives. But the actual motive for MURDER seems to be the same old, SOP, involvement in organized crime. Either participating in CIA-connected Mafia business, or in a position to blow the whistle on CIA-connected Mafia business. If you own an Italian restaurant (or just about any restaurant) here in St Louis, you get everything from olive oil to linens from the mob. Even if you don't know you're buying from the mob. Does that mean you're "in" the mob? No. But if you try to buy from someone else...In New York City in the 1970s, if you are in ANY business, you are doing business with the mob. Was Carl Denaro's family officially "in" the mob? Officially? It doesn't make any difference. His stepfather worked directly under Sicilian Mafia banker Frank Denaro Jr, overseeing the most important division of any investment bank--money laundering markets that includes the traveler's cheques business. It doesn't matter if Carl's stepfather was a "made man" in the Mafia. What matters is, the way the Mafia would send a warning to Carl's stepfather is by going after a member of his family. Why would the Mafia, backed by their old friends in the CIA, want to send a message to Carl's stepfather AND Donna Lauria's mother AND... The REAL, complete truth about Carl, his biological father, his stepfather, what Carl was doing before he got shot, how he got shot, and how he got that job at Citibank after he got shot, is even more interesting than that. As we shall soon SEE. But it's all about Frank Denaro, the Sicilian Mafia, the Vatican Bank, the CIA, and heroin--and nothing whatsoever to do with any "Death Cult." Even if some of the other murders do have something to do with a "Death Cult." Carl’s shooter, we’re 99% sure, was a woman. Be interesting to find out what she did for a living. I can’t see Mike Carr interacting with the Mafia. Not to cast aspersions or get politically incorrect, but he was not a macho guy, I think we can all agree. John Carr, according to people who actually liked the him, had a screw loose. Can’t trust a guy like that. Berky might have been tolerated but he’s not a wheeler-dealer. A bit of a Travis Bickle really. The women in the crew on the other hand! What do you suppose a stoner witch does to make ends meet?
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ace
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Post by ace on May 17, 2021 9:20:21 GMT -6
Hmmm... ”I was a friend of Herman Slater of the old Warlock Shop in Brooklyn Heights before it moved to Manhattan and became Magickal Childe. I was around during the famous Witch Wars of the Seventies, when it seemed that everyone was casting spells on everyone else. I was there when Gardnerians and Welsh Trads and Alexandrians and Sicilian Trads sat down around a table in the back of Herman's shop to settle the War and make peace once and for all.” Peter Levenda Source
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Post by Admin Horan on May 17, 2021 9:23:44 GMT -6
I don't see one single solitary reason to assume that Carl's shooter was a woman. You might as well conclude JFK was shot by a woman.
You think the Mafia only do business with "macho" guys? Like Meyer Lansky? Maybe to JOIN the Mafia as a bona fide (get it?) "made man," you have to be a little "macho." But if Michael Carr had anything whatsoever to do with porno, including gay porno, there is NO ONE ELSE to deal with in those days BUT mafia.
And I don't understand why people believe this ridiculous myth that "the mafia only kill other mafia." You get killed because you DON"T do business with the mafia. That's what the mafia does. You're specifically NOT supposed to kill mafia (unless it's been approved by some "commission.")
Broads, cards, dice, cops, DAs, politicians, hot cars, money laundering, porn, dope, guns--ALL MAFIA, ALL THE TIME. Every single one of the SOS victims was mixed up in Mafia-dominated businesses (assuming the specific hospital where Donna Lauria AND HER MOTHER worked was involved in the heroin/blood supply ring) or, in the case of Donna Lauria, Jody Valenti, Carl Denaro, Ronnie DeFeo, related to or married to or dating mafia people. Or both. The CIA (or people in the CIA) have been jungled up with the Mafia since before WWII. And here we go again--CIA banks who launder Nazi money, drug money, Mafia money into, primarily, REAL ESTATE...and here we have "victims" and "serial killers" jungled up with the CIA, Nazis/neo-Nazis, Mafia. And yes, apparently, many of these "people" are involved in wacky pseudo-Satanic, Nazi-worshipping, acid-dropping, dog-torturing, letter-writing "killer" cults, all of which have common origins. But does this "cult" business actually crack any of these cases? Nope. Does the old "CIA-funded Mafia banks laundering Mafia gun, drug, porn, gambling and CIA/Nazi gold/arms smuggling money through CIA-Mafia owned real estate companies..." crack ALL of these cases?
Yup.
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