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Post by snoho17 on Oct 18, 2020 19:26:17 GMT -6
True, but they do have her sons. For some reason, I'm pretty sure they have hers also. She is the one person who continously contacted the authorities. Id bet she volunteered hers before they got justins. I really believe she thought solving this case could "fix" justin and alleviate her own guilty feelings that had developed over his "issues".
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Post by hope on Oct 18, 2020 19:37:39 GMT -6
I think you may be right on both your thoughts. It is truly bizarre. I cannot see FBI allowing it either. In regards to Gamberg (& PCOS?) I have no idea what their reasoning for this could be. Was he simply tasked with digitizing and organizing all their paper files? And in the process is putting out little bits that in his mind fit into his Marty theory? Is that the point of all this? Or is there something else going on? It could just be a last ditch effort to get someone to talk. But in the process he has accused a lot of people of murder as if its fact. Including a girl who lost almost her entire family at 14 years old, all over a fingerprints on a lightbulb, at the home she lived in. That is not ok and I cannot believe it is being allowed to happen. Maybe they are just trying to rattle some people. In the back of my mind I sometimes think he must know something we don't, know of some indisputable evidence. But if that's the case then why havent they made arrests or closed the case. Until that happens it is still unsolved and the leading theory is the most convoluted thing I have ever heard.
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Post by kmik on Oct 18, 2020 22:16:06 GMT -6
Yes Marilyn told on DMac form in 2017 that she gave her dna to them in 2016 so yes I believe they have her dna and it’s not at the scene. Yes I believe she was hoping to get this all settled for Justin’s mental health and hers also but by then they already knew Justin’s was there.
I don’t buy into the Marty theory whatsoever but the truth is they’ve been hounded for years as a result of the lies they told in 1981. Gamberg knows he’s putting all of this out there just like he knew and participated in him putting it on his forum. Mikes a link in this too and it’s not so much to prove Marty a killer as it is to prove Doug Thomas was corrupt. The new found info of Doug T only convinces me even more of the work he put in to solve this case
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Post by snoho17 on Oct 19, 2020 14:25:20 GMT -6
Agreed. Something happened to a family member of mine years ago. In the jurisdiction of a small, ill equipped sherriffs department. I can tell you the pcso, handled their case miles better. I was just incredulous at how many times I saw people shooting off about how they tried to sabotage the case, or their egos prevented them from reaching out, BS! Were mistakes made? sure! But not for any nefarious reasons I see. First in my mind is the hypnosis, it was all the rage then. They saw it as the newest, greatest tool, as did half the country! I do think it was irresponsible of DT to experiment with justin after he attended 2 seminars. Lol, everyone in pkumas was running around trying to recover memories through this magic! At least they weren't feeling for irregular head bumps LOL!
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Post by kmik on Oct 20, 2020 7:02:35 GMT -6
You're right about the hypnosis being the rage back then and possibly 2 seminars would have been all that was required (equivalent to many hours worth?) it just appears he was doing all he could. He called in the DOJ, FBI, Harlan Embry, Dr. Dash, he talked to a doctor about "how to talk to Justin" and even psychics. We now know he also got Marty in his squad car several times and recorded what he said (hence Marty's now famous exaggerated friendship with Doug Thomas).
I recently watched a 1981 Canadian cold case and the Sgt. who worked the case said they had so many tips coming in that they had to check out and even had clairvoyants giving them wild information but he said they "dared not check it out" for fear it might be credible. He also said early on they released a composite sketch and looking back he wished they hadn't because they lost so many hours checking out tips that never produced a suspect and some people would call in just because they might be having problems with a spouse but they had to check everything out.
Wow so much of this sounds like the Keddie investigation - but really this probably sounds like a lot of cold cases. Looks to me like PCSO was chasing down any and all leads!!
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Post by snoho17 on Oct 20, 2020 13:21:32 GMT -6
Absolutely, and in this case I think it was important for them to get the sketch out at the time because they had a possible living victim to find. In the end it probably did more harm then good, but I understand the urgency to find Tina.
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Post by poweranni on Oct 25, 2020 22:37:27 GMT -6
given what we know about Justin’s statements why wouldn’t his DNA be there? It has been said Justin's DNA was on the tape. If that is true, why was his DNA on the tape? Why was his DNA on anything? Did he bleed? Was the DNA from blood? And from the photo of Sue, her hands are resting on her dress. If he tried to "help" Sue, (we know according to what he said he had to have seen her wound on her chest) he would have done that after the killers were gone. Her hands were already tied in front. She was "hog" tied which meant she would have been in an almost fetal position. In order see anything he would have had to take the blanket and sheet off her body. Why not try and take her gag off. But according to him he check the wound of her chest. Not only did he have to take the blanket and sheet off her he had to move her bloody hands. If that be the case he could have left a bloody finger print(s). After checking Sue and surely getting blood on his hands he then had to put the sheet and blanket back over her. Or, did he then go and wash his hands in the bathroom? (I hope I am making sense.) How did Justin even know her chest was cut with the blanket and sheet covering her and with her body almost in a fetal position, and the low lighting?Did he try to "help" Johnny and Dana? Why Sue and not the boys? He had to have seen them first. After seeing the boys why wasn't he afraid to lift that blanket?? I don't think he could have done or seen any of this without the light in that room being on. After spending time checking Sue Justin knew the killers are not in the house or waiting outside, after all they have Tina (according to him). Why didn't he run out of that house to get help? The boys go back to bed in that house with 3 dead bodies. Justin was not the only one awake in that house that night. According to the reports Greg talked about that night and talked about waking up. If Greg was awake then so was Ricky. Much has been made of Justin's alleged involvement. Wasn't Justin a 12 year old boy at the time? Most kids that age would run in terror. Or freeze up, totally intimidated. Imagine walking into a room where your friend's mom, his older brother and this much older teenager are lying in a pool of blood with bashed-in skulls .... think back to your mindset, at 12 years of age. Then imagine THAT scene! If his DNA is on the medical tape, it is probably because it was in the house and the kids were goofing around with it. Bored kids do that kind of stuff. Did the suspect bring in the medical tape, or was it already in the house?
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Post by karis on Oct 26, 2020 3:39:24 GMT -6
Justin was born April 8, 1969 so he had just celebrated his 12th birthday 3 days earlier.
I agree, most kids would have run. He was "asleep" in the bedroom that was probably 9 ft. from the house next door. The room had a window. Why didn't he run? But according to the current theory he was "forced" to participate. Not only he but the victims other 10 year old son. But we know according to what Justin himself told:
1. He heard a noise and got out of bed and watched Tina get taken out by 2 men.
He just witnessed Tina being abducted but he didn't run for help.
2. described 1, no 2, men
If he saw the men leave with Tina why didn't he run?
3. he helped Sue by running into the room and placing a rag over her cut on her chest to try to stop the bleeding.
Once again he didn't freeze up or run but instead tried to help Sue. He didn't mention when he cleaned up after helping Sue. He would have had blood on his hands and feet.
4. he described the bottom of Dana Wingate's shoes.
Look at the crime scene photo's and notice where he would have to have been in that room to seen this. The shoes were not Dana's but borrowed from a friend earlier
5. after witnessing what he described he then went and got in the bed and went to sleep
Bored? No in all that Justin told he never said anything about being bored. He says they rode bikes till dark, they went inside and watched tv, at some point they play cars "all over the house", then went to bed and went to sleep. He never mentions playing with the any tape.
Who knows. Justin has told so many things. He has told he went in and out of that house that night. If so, why didn't he go to the Seabolts for help? If he really tried to help Sue he would have had blood on his hands and more than likely his feet(unless he had on his shoes). Where and when did he clean up? Looking at the crime scene photos he had to have walked around that room to have seen the bottom of Dana's shoes. He didn't see that in the dark. Nor did he see the cut on Sue chest in the dark. He had to have turned on the light. If he did that then the killer(s) were not there at that point. Once again he didn't run. He went back to bed in that murder house after witnessing Sue, Dana and Johnny's bodies and slept. All this was according to him.
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Post by kmik on Dec 1, 2020 18:47:21 GMT -6
Just my thoughts from a recent 28 FB Post (and I truly hope anyone who is a believer in the Marty theory understands that what I post is not to bash Dmac but instead to point out that most of what he writes is just his "opinion" and we all have our own).
Here is an example of my problem with Mike (or Dmac's interpretation of Mike's thinking). How in the world could a man who, by his own admission, knew these people and worked for the PCSO for years have to rely on Dmac to tell him which directions he needed to go in a case that he should have been more than familiar with?
I certainly can understand if Mike had health issues and surgery that prevented him from meeting with VIDOCQ but why in the world wouldn't PCSO have sent someone in place of Mike to meet with them, especially if they had more evidence (remember Mike told Victoria in the 2018 article that he hoped by September to have more evidence to take to VIDOCQ?) Did they not have anything? (According to 28 Mike wasn't even cut until March of 2019)
There's drugs ALL OVER AMERICA. There was in 1981 and there is now - nothing new. How in the world did this have ANYTHING to do with the Keddie murders? All of this makes for another good conspiracy episode of "Unsolved Mysteries" but that's all. As Hope said a good explanation for why these murders were not solved is because the police were in over their heads, hence them calling in help, and so many lies from family and "friends". Sorry but LE couldn't make these people tell the truth and they could only work with what they had.
Here we go again. Sorry, but if Dmac caught this one liner within his first month looking through these files then one must ask what case files had Mike been "investigating" all those years? Dmac can continue to "pretend" to "make excuses" for Mike before he types, "I found, I gave, I deduced, I vetted, I'm right, again", but that's just his "polite" way of saying Mike didn't do his job. I haven't seen Mike defend himself against this talk so I'm led to believe he hasn't done anything more than a little PI work for Dmac.
Here's where he truly needs to make a decision. Either he believes Marilyn was the mastermind and Marty the killer, or Sheila the mastermind and Marty the killer. Sorry but trying to pull everyone in just seems to indicate that he's covering his bases and his theory is falling apart.
I sincerely hope that Dmac does not have Alzheimers/Dementia. Karis and I lost our Mom in 2018 and she had suffered with Alzheimers for at least 8 years - it ran in her family - 2 uncles and 3 aunts all had it. So we are VERY familiar with the disease and exactly how it affects someone.
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Post by snoho17 on Dec 9, 2020 19:43:38 GMT -6
Damn, that would account for the confused rageful outbursts. I watched 2 lovely ladies disintegrate. Very sad:(
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Post by snoho17 on Dec 9, 2020 20:17:05 GMT -6
Ironic how he visciously attacks people who's memory falters after 40 yrs....
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Post by kmik on Dec 10, 2020 9:07:24 GMT -6
Just a few things I'm trying to sort out based on new info.
*Justin spent Friday night at the Sharps Residence. (Highly unlikely Marty and Marilyn did not know he was there Saturday night also)
*Early Saturday morning Sue, Sheila, Ricky, Greg and Justin all go to Quincy and Ricky and Justin are dropped off at ball practice. On the way home Sheila only mentions stopping near Ganser Park to pick up J&D who were hitchhiking - no mention of picking up Ricky and Justin. (Either they did pick up Ricky and Justin and she forgot to include them or Sue asked someone at the ballfield to drop them off in Keddie)
*Johnny, Dana, Sue, and Sheila all raked yards on Saturday. (If true it's possible Sheila knew as early as that afternoon that Dana was spending the night with Johnny. Did Sheila really help J&D rake leaves or did Justin assume she was because she was out in the yard talking to them - and that may even be the reason they left for the foster home soon after raking to ask for Dana to spend the night)
*Possible gap between J&D going to Joe Baze and the Foster Home.
*J&D visit John Baze and Richard Meeks and Sparky are they. They do not mention that Dana is spending the night with Johnny (maybe that's because they didn't want Richard to know).
*J&D go to the foster home and tell Pat Dorris they are getting a ride to Keddie from Kathy Beckley. (Had they already been over to Kathy's - possible explaination for the gap in the timeline - and had already asked her or had they just assumed she would take them to Keddie?)
*Robert Mannies spends Saturday night at the foster home with Vernal Mullens but by 8-9 Sunday morning is sitting in his truck while waiting on his mom at the Holiday Market when he is approached by Richard Meeks who asks him if he knows where Dana is. Robert told him that Vernal said Dana spent the night with Johnny in Keddie.
*Sunday morning Joey C is approached by Richard Meeks looking for Dana. He was supposed to go to Richard's house on Saturday night but didn't. Joey tells Richard that Dana spent the night in Keddie with Johnny and Richard and Mike Hamilton hitchhike to Keddie to find him. Joey later hears about the murders and drives to Keddie to tell Richard. (I'm guessing Richard saw Robert first because Robert didn't mention Mike Hamilton. Richard out looking for Dana Sunday morning is a great indicator that he was not in 28 killing anyone because if he was he would have known where Dana was. I'm no Richard fan but lets face it he was looking for Dana Sunday morning and that's why he went to Keddie)
*Richard told Sheila on Sunday that Dana hardly got cut just a hit on his head - Don told her Sue got the worst. (Okay we know Don was not in 28 killing anyone but by the time Don and the Dorris's saw these bodies and went back and discussed what they saw - the kids heard all this talk and repeated it. It takes no time for word to spread in a small town. If Richard would have killed Dana or have really known what happened why didn't he say that Dana was strangled)
**Some things I really question now are - was Glenna really upset with Sue over the baby or was that just "documentary drama"? If she was upset with Sue then "WHY" and is this in anyone's statement from 1981? Or did Glenna feel they were blaming it on being Richards baby when it might possibly be Dana's? Was she upset that Sue had Sheila give it up for adoption (because even if Sue was paid the Meeks were not entitled to any money). Did they have a blood test done in 1981? If not then they had NO idea if it was Dana or Richard's baby - they may know now but the question is did they know back then in 1981?
**I thought we had long figured out that these kids were on Spring/Easter Break the week following the murders. Several years ago (not sure if it's still there and I'm going from memory) we found a comment by someone who went to school with the kids on the "You know you're from Quincy" FB page and they remembered the last time they saw Dana and he was walking down Mainstreet as they were leaving town for Springbreak. The aerial photo showing one of the Seabolt girls standing on the porch did little to prove to us the photos were taken on Sunday because we knew the kids were out of school so it could have been taken any day that next week.
**I really have to laugh when I see Doug Thomas being called corrupt for taking notes or being given files on the case after he left the PCSO. Mike Gamberg has literally turned over 300 plus pages of files to someone who is neither family or LE - and what did he get in return? Doug Thomas "secret" files which have amounted to nothing at all.
**2016 FBI said this should have been solved in 1981 (implying that Marty and Marilyn were guilty) If they really said this then why in the world are they being called corrupt now? Is it possible they meant if the kids would have been questioned more it could have been solved in 1981? From what little we've seen it appears they were trying to extract anything Justin may have told Marilyn by accusing her or sympathizing with her - and it only seems the police were asking her things that were told or said on the forums and not actual info from 1981.
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Post by snoho17 on Dec 10, 2020 19:47:07 GMT -6
Very interesting! Where did you find this? Makes me feel like we can knock meeks off. He seems pretty intent on finding Dana, would love to know why. He missed a meet up for? Also the sharps had a phone, I would have called to make sure Dana was still there before heading up.
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Post by kmik on Dec 10, 2020 21:36:50 GMT -6
Not sure exactly what time he was out and about but Robert Mannies statement said he talked to him between 8-9am. It appears he was uptown with no cell phones at the time so catching a ride a few miles up the road was what he did.
I have no idea if Richard already knew about the murders or if he was just out and about looking for his best friend (isn't that what Dmac said that according to reports Dana was much closer to Richard).
Maybe one day Sheila or Alyssa will tell if they were waiting on the boys to come to Keddie so Alyssa could see Dana - or Sheila could see Dana. At this point it doesn't appear that the boys told Richard their plans for Dana to stay at 28
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Post by kmik on Dec 13, 2020 10:11:27 GMT -6
Where was the Dorris Home was in April 1981. A February 11, 1981 FRB article states that, "Mr. and Mrs. Dan Dorris have operated the county-owned facility located at Bell Lane and Quincy Junction Road, in Quincy for some five years". I'm guessing this is where it was a month later?
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