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Post by Admin Horan on May 23, 2014 19:35:56 GMT -6
I had no idea HarperCollins was secretly coming out with yet another "My Daddy Was the Zodiac" book. So, here I am, posting a new thread entirely OUT OF ORDER, because lots of people are suddenly asking me about it. I'm thrilled lots of people are curious about my work, but please be patient while I catch up on threads and videos about the ENTIRE Zodiac Hoax. In the mean time, anyone who is interested in the handwriting "analysis" QDE Michael Wakshull mikew@quality9.com did for HarperCollins of Earl Best, Jr, all I can say is, finding a match among three or four letters of the alphabet isn't anything. Any two people writing in the same language can easily show half a dozen points of similarity. As first mentioned in video 4 and will be covered in more detail in subsequent videos and threads, "Zodiac" had access to information [some of it WRONG] that the actual killers COULD NOT have known. On a very, very short list of people with access to that information, there is one person with this handprinting:
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Post by Admin Horan on May 31, 2014 20:34:31 GMT -6
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Post by warlock on May 31, 2014 23:08:06 GMT -6
prof, these claims always contain the same elements. 1. a dead relative. 2. he looks like the composite. 3. the handwriting looks the same as in the letters.
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smithy
Junior Member
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Post by smithy on Jun 28, 2014 12:06:54 GMT -6
"BTW, in the days following the October 13 letter, Paul Avery published an article in the Chronicle reporting that investigators had noticed what I noticed about the p, d, etc." He did?
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smithy
Junior Member
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Post by smithy on Jun 28, 2014 13:12:28 GMT -6
...and while I'm spamming you - here's another double post.
I think that you scared off Mr Wakshull; that conversation seems to be over. It's strange that he made a point (his first) that the Zodiac letters were all written quickly - then seemed to discount that fact completely while comparing single letters. Odd. He did spot several single letters he didn't like, though. My friend Trav did the same, when he compared samples. (He didn't like the "k" at all - saying it was short-stemmed in the report from whoever-it-was. He's right.) Is it because the letters and the report are printed that QED-types always come down to finding a few letters they don't like, and calling it a day? I suppose so.
Anyway.
I've been reading Ron N. Morris's Seminal work, "Forensic Handwriting Identification: Fundamental concepts and principles." It doesn't say anything at all about letters being rotated. It refers, in turn, to Wilson R. Harrison's 1966 text "Suspect Documents - their scientific examination" and Mr Arthur J Quirke's book "Forged, Anonymous and Suspect Documents". I wonder if either of these textbooks on the subjects mention rotation of letters as a system to defeat people making handwriting comparisons? I'd love to know. Perhaps I'll find out.
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Post by Admin Horan on Jun 28, 2014 21:14:46 GMT -6
Smithy: The capital C is a dead giveaway. Wakshull didn't see it. Funny dotting of the eyes.
Well, forgers of course don't forge upside down. But here's what's so durned innerestin about Snooks method—he could sit right down in font of any "investigator" and print naturally. And they wouldn't see it. You know, kind of like he knew he might have to do just that, and knew exactly what they'd be watching for.
I have other info that yes, indeedy, that's what Avery's source was talking about. In fact, I have pretty good information that several investigators knew in late 1969 that the letters were written by a north Bay Area deputy sheriff. Not good enough to publish, but I think the docs in the public domain are enough to prove it. But it was nice to find out I was right.
Snook, of course, was present at that conference October 20. Starting with the very next letter, "Zodiac" stopped doing it. You I know what's funny? NO REPORTERS allowed at the conference. Even Power and Avery only saw some notes left on a chalkboard after everyone left. So, how did "Zodiac" know to nix the rotated printing? And I might need to point out—They are NOT "mirror images" of Snook's printing, the way a forger might try to do. They're rotated. We can see that by the strokes.
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Post by Admin Horan on Jun 28, 2014 21:16:02 GMT -6
Warlock: Right. And you'll notice LOTS of "Daddy! Daddy! Daddy!" memoirs beyond "true crime."
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smithy
Junior Member
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Post by smithy on Jun 29, 2014 11:59:14 GMT -6
Mr H., "dotting of the eyes" I like. Perhaps he's suffering from "a priori". Perhaps we are....? Forgers don't forge upside down, but people trying to disguise their writing apparently do - and there's a quote to that effect in one of those books I mentioned. :-) Further, there are definitions about groups of characters, the Zaner-Bloser system groups, which I found interesting. I expect you've read up on these things already. I found them here. books.google.co.uk/books?id=G-FgCOkwtLoC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=Saudek+speed+of+writing&source=bl&ots=_d-ZPIeLlG&sig=fHcXbQh7O0LGMbsKuMzpYNJw820&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z0ywU_uvG8WfO9PBgCg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Saudek%20speed%20of%20writing&f=false What I'm trying to say here (in longhand) is that although your observation about the rotated characters being used to substitute each other from discrete Z-B groups(!) both impressed and surprised the hell out of me, document examiners back in the 60's SHOULD have been familiar with writing "upside-down" as a mechanism used to conceal features of your handwriting. It's in the text books. Yes Hal would have known that - he would have studied from those text books. Yes, he would believe that NORMAL detectives would expect to have him write something out as a test, and NOT ask him to rotate the paper through 180 while writing p's for d's, for instance. BUT he would also have known (no?) that a decent document examiner would also have looked at those documents and see what you've seen. My worry about the docs in the public domain (did I not mention?) is that the report with Snooks signature on it ain't his handwriting until you can prove it's his handwriting. I don't recognise his signature - and even if I did, it wouldn't matter. He could have signed that report and still not have written it. I've seen no other examples of "his" handwriting. (Except, of course, those he wrote as Zodiac. - yuck yuck yuck. Which he didn't sign "Hal Snook", unfortunately.) Now, I need to go through your last paragraph a line at a time, 'cos I don't understand it. "Snook, of course, was present at that conference October 20." With you so far. "Starting with the very next letter, "Zodiac" stopped doing it." What? Rotating characters? Writing in at all? Up until now you've held up the change from rotated to not rotated as one of the proofs that Hal packed it in and someone else took it up, so..... "You I know what's funny? NO REPORTERS allowed at the conference." So the reporters didn't know that certain characters were rotated? So they couldn't emulate Hal's little tricks effectively? OK then. If that's what you mean. Which you might not. "So, how did "Zodiac" know to nix the rotated printing?" Errrr, so you're saying he did know? That someone had spotted the rotation technique and aired that fact at the conference? My brain hurts. "And I might need to point out—They are NOT "mirror images" of Snook's printing, the way a forger might try to do. They're rotated. We can see that by the strokes." Eh? The characters Hal used (it was him right? It's his writing because it's his signature on the report?) - anyway, the characters Hal used, were the corresponding character from the opposite Z-B group, which he drew after he'd rotated the paper 180 degrees. Correct. BTW - I happened upon those books I referred to earlier by looking for Dr Robert Saudek, who your new friend Mr Wakshull referred to. Fun guy, interesting stuff.
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smithy
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Post by smithy on Jun 29, 2014 12:30:03 GMT -6
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Post by Admin Horan on Jun 29, 2014 21:55:36 GMT -6
Remember, now, it's not just Snook's handwriting—he was one of a very small handful of recipients of those files from the LHR and BRS cases that were sent to neighboring PD's in July, 1969. All I had to do (ha!) was find examples of those people's handwriting, and look at them upside down. Conveniently, there was a sample already in the files themselves that, when rotated 180 degrees, matched Zodiac. That's the point—I went looking for a HOAXER, and there he was. All I needed to sew the whole thing up was find his accomplice, the one who snooped around SFPD's crime lab area. And then Seagull found those clippings from October 1969, and another astounding "coincidence" was discovered. Told you my haterz would make me famous.
Oh, I'm pretty sure Snook got caught, or confessed, in October, 1969. I'm pretty sure that's why this sample of his handwriting is in these files. All of his other reports are typed. I think it's as plain as the nose on my face why his name and Keith Power's name aren't in Graysmith's book. He only wrote three letters. I don't see any mystery to any of this, just tabloid hype. None of this is complicated, just tedious. Reading 1100 pages of original source material in chronological order. No mystery at all. I mean a lot of people make their d just like the p, only upside down. g/b, etc. But not Snook. His are distinctly different. And he chose THOSE letters to write 180 degrees. Like I said, those letters SCREAM "Hoax! Hoax! Hoax!" to anyone reading these files. Just like anyone reading these letters and files would end up asking Hoffman some pointed questions. 'Snot his handwriting, but I think he drew some attention based on these letters. Just a month after the Zodiac confab, Ott was no longer Villareal's favorite snitch. Funny, that.
Did Narlow and Mulanax NOT KNOW it was hoax? They were pretty junior at the time, so maybe. Or maybe they did know. Every ex cop who poo-pooed the "Zodiac" myth ended up on the cutting room floor, so maybe they just took a hint.
No, I think the only mystery is whether or not Dennis Land also killed Lynda Kanes and the girls in Sonoma County. I don't see him stopping after one. Did he kill any girls in Germany? American MPs still had police power over civilians in West Germany in the 1960s. He could easily have gotten away with it. The way he seems to have bent over backwards to incriminate himself in the Shepard murder suggests he wanted to get caught, at least for a while. But it sure seems funny that "Zodiac" was only used as an alibi in one of those murders. Kind of like "he" knew it wouldn't work twice. Somehow.
There's zero doubt Dave Collins covered up for him over the years. Did anyone else?
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Post by Admin Horan on Jun 29, 2014 22:34:55 GMT -6
Back to the point of this website—it's not just obvious that the Zodiac letters were some kind of hoax. It's also obvious that Robert Graysmith KNEW the letters were a hoax when he wrote his "book." Ever see a sample of HIS handprinting? Did you know he HATES to sign autographs? For some reason? They're rare, but they suuuuuuuure do look innerestin. Very innerestin.
Know how he met Hal Snook? That's even more innerestin. So innerestin, you won't believe it. Untill I get confirmation. Which should be soon. I just hope the SOB doesn't die on me before I get it.
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smithy
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Post by smithy on Jun 30, 2014 10:00:37 GMT -6
No no no, it's not just the handwriting. And despite the fact that I can't figure out - at all - Hal Snook's motive for doing what he did, I do think he did it, yes. Was he caught? Hmmm.
Dennis Land? Well..... Sgt. Thomas Munk was rather nudged into his "discovery of the body" of Lynda Kane by dear old Dennis, wasn't he. But, but, but. At this point no, I'm not a believer. Not unless several people were entirely complicit - probably including Hal. Say, never mind Germany, what was he up to before he went?
It would suprise me 0% if Mr Greysmith knew the whole thing was a hoax. What better way to profit from unsolved murder cases - knowing full well that they will remain unsolved, and that you can pretty much write what you like? Lovely. (And he did!) Have you had a look at Dave Smith yet? Didn't I post about him here? I know I posted about him someplace. The more I look at the Confession letter and that piece he wrote about "so-and-so's Son" in October '69, the more I wonder about him. (Kudos, Tahoe.)
I'd make a bet or two on how and where Messrs Snook and Smith (Graysmith) met - but then you've already dropped some hints there Mr H., so it wouldn't be fair. Confirmation? Hurry up!
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Post by Admin Horan on Jun 30, 2014 10:14:18 GMT -6
Smithy: I think the motive was very simple: to call attention to the things one definitely notices, once one obtains access to these files. Snook and Power were pretty stand up guys, and I think this was a pretty smart way to call attention to a lot of police/press corruption gong on at that time. I mean, there's a famous clip of the Chief of SFPD holding a press conference to announce, weeks after Fisherman's Wharf opened for business, that "there is no organized crime in SF."
As a teenager, Dennis used to buy hunting and fishing tackle from Snook at his store in Napa, etc. Land got his AS degree in Criminal Justice from Napa Junior College, where Snook TAUGHT classes in Criminal Justice. Dennis joined the Army after he got his degree and became an MP, first at Fort Ord(?) and then Frankfurt. Frankfurt, of course, was the US's biggest and most important air force base in Europe.
Go ahead, buddy, if you know something else about just how far back Snook and Robert Smith Jr go, then by all means.
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Post by Admin Horan on Jun 30, 2014 10:28:28 GMT -6
Ask Jake Gyllenhaal how Snook and Graysmith knew each other. He knows.
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smithy
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by smithy on Jun 30, 2014 12:07:29 GMT -6
Mr H., that "stand-up guy" opinion gets a bit wobbly set against obstruction of justice and tampering with (or fabricating) physical evidence. If you think - and sometimes I do - that Mr Snook was being a little sneaky with those footprints and perpetuating the idea that they lead to another (non-existent vehicle).... and if you suspect - and I sometimes do - that he actually did write on that car door...? Well. Finger-printing beer bottles? OK, why not.
Having a guy who taught classes in criminal justice handle that crime scene that way does seem rather extraordinary though. No?
And was this "phantom menace" necessary just to call attention to police corruption, do you think? A nice detailed expose (where's the accent) letter to the SF Chronicle wouldn't have gone down just as well? I'm not sure. Mr Snook was also getting his rocks off on this stuff, perhaps. Maybe he loved doing it because he was a tiny bit weird.
Dennis knew Snook, yes, you've said so and I don't doubt it. He certainly worked with him. Ended up working with him, that is. Yes, Frankfurt was still lousy with servicemen when I was there too, in the 80's (and again in the 90's), at the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and the VWD wire service. Happy times. Does that mean that Hal Snook was willingly an accessory to murder and attempted murder at Berryessa? Why not? I really don't know, though. It's all very very odd, ain't it.
No, I don't know anything about Robert Smith the boy scout, or any happenstance meetings he may or may not have had in Japan in his early life with a touring serviceman. Or anything along those lines. No, really. I just read rumours about it someplace.
Ha! And I don't know Jake Gyllenhaal personally and I've never seen that cowboy movie about what comes out of Texas being other than steers, either. If I did know him I'd be ringing him up right now.
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