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Post by Admin Horan on Jul 1, 2014 8:20:09 GMT -6
Smithy: Keep in mind—IF the guy writing the "Zodiac" letters to the newspapers had written that message on Bryan's car door, HE WOULD HAVE USED A BLUE FELT-TIP PEN, and not a black one. Not to mention the name, "Zodiac." And he would have dotted the i in knife "correctly." And his V would have been "correct." And the numbers don't look like Snook's, either. So I see zero reasons for him, lots for the copycat, one or two for Ray Land.
Oh, there's no doubt Dennis Land did everything in the world to make himself look suspicious.
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smithy
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Post by smithy on Jul 1, 2014 10:58:16 GMT -6
Mr H., well...... Writing in blue on paper 'cos you know the litho process (perhaps) is one thing. Having a nice fat magic marker to write on a car with - ALSO in blue ('cos you know the car's going to be white ahead of time? Think he carried some white-out with him as well?) - that's quite another thing. Naaaa, he would NOT NECESSARILY HAVE USED A BLUE FELT-TIP if shouting helps.
Do you think he might have been just about to write "Zodiac" when he let go of the door handle and fell on his keester, poor old fella?
Here's the trouble with Hal Snook having no vast array of handwriting samples out there to call on - indeed, having just that one report in the public domain to refer to - those numbers? On his report, they're small. Even so, I quite like the 6, and I REALLY like the 6 and the 9 on the 2nd letter, and "2 - 3 inches across" from that letter too..... If he wrote it! Hey ho.
You don't like that "p" on the door?
I don't like the little circle dots in 6:30 - but I like more than I dislike - including "Vallejo" with those lovely double "l's" - looking like the word "Valley" does on his report. A lot.
Could the door have been written on by someone who knew Hal's handwriting quite well? Even someone who realised what he was up to with the first couple of letters, and thought he might have some fun with it? Perhaps.
If the guy who wrote on the door later wrote more letters, I'll buy that. The "by knife" ties in SO well with the cartoon "Death Wheel" from Tim Holt #30 as found by Tahoe, that I have to believe the later material - that damn useless Halloween card - well.....
But it's all a bit complicated and annoying.
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Post by Admin Horan on Jul 2, 2014 6:39:15 GMT -6
Smithy—well, you saw what happened people who called attention to the special treatment Big Red was getting in Vallejo, and what the Bllue Meanies did about it. So, yeah, I think going straight to the Feds would have put holes in Snook's kids' heads, for sure. And yes, Snook liked to show off how much smarter he was than everybody else.
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smithy
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Post by smithy on Jul 2, 2014 10:24:05 GMT -6
Mr H., the police in the area at the time seem to have been worth pretty much naff-all in investigations (as we say in the UK) - and probably were cap-deep in corruption too, yes. Anecdotal information I was given a couple of years ago by one of my Merkan friends tells me things may have not changed all that much lately in respect to the former, either... Oh well.
Yes indeed Mr Snook seems to have been quite pleased with himself. Not a man I think would suffer from much in the way of a self-confidence problem. (A trait I quite admire, of course.) That doesn't conclusively prove matters against him though does it. Damn it.
The writer seems to NOT want to involve the Feds. And how backwards is that, if he really is a whistle-blower? Ayuh.
How muddy it still is around Berryessa! It's dreadful. If Hal didn't write on the door, someone who could impersonate his writing pretty well in failing light, did. That's pretty odd. The fact that his investigation at Berryessa seems to mislead rather than assist - that's odd. And whoooooey - the fact that HIS home-made boogeyman was copy-catted independently by some strolling nutcase (or perhaps by one of his colleagues?!) who was then suddenly on the scene stabbing people to death, right under his nose? That's not just odd - that's super-freaky coincidental "Oh-My-God!" on a grand scale. Isn't it?
What are the chances? I think another explanation may be required. A unified theory-of-everything.
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Post by Admin Horan on Jul 4, 2014 6:44:55 GMT -6
Smithy: "He" went to aaaaaaallllll the trouble of making himself a "Zodiac" costume, creating a custom cipher, making himself a homemade bolo knife, etc, AND FORGOT TO PACK ONE OF HIS TRADEMARK BLUE FELT TIP PENS? And forgot to say—TWICE—"This is the Zodiac?" Is't absolutely impossible that it was the same guy? No. Is there one single solitary shred of evidence that it was the same guy? No.
The copycat didn't have to practice SNOOK's handprinting, only the handprinting on the letter pubslished in the paper. Eight weeks before. Which he didn't copy all that perfectly.
Fascinating, isn't it? IF one reads the actual evidence with an a priori assumption that there really was a Zodiac who really killed all six of these kids and wrote all of the letters Graysmith claimed he wrote, then yeah, one sees things that just aren't there. But without an a priori belief in Zodiac, there is simply no reason to think the persons writing those letters were connected to any one of these murders. Except Graysmith's claim that Sherwood Morrill declared the graffito on Bryan's car door matched the Zodiac letters.
By the way, has anyone ever actually SEEN any of these official, "expert" opinions of Morrill's? They're nowhere in the files. Nothing there, except the notes and reports of the FBI graphologist who notes, yes, similarities in the handprinting between each "Zodiac" communication, but also lots of differences.
I mean, the only "documentation" of Morrill's expert opinions is in Graysmith's book. You know, the book where he lies about almost everything except the names of the victims?
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smithy
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Post by smithy on Jul 4, 2014 14:35:31 GMT -6
Mr H., he made a custom cipher? Ah, you mean a "cipher" as in a symbol, not a "cipher" as in a "cypher". Check. Despite starting as an avid Graysmith reader I no longer believe "a priori". Check. Was it the same guy writing the letters and then stabbing Cecilia and Bryan? That would seem highly unlikely. Check.
Say, if you were the guy writing those first letters, stirring stuff up and pointing fingers - and someone turned up on your patch in an investigation you'd have to do the forensics for - murdering someone using "your" invented bad guy and writing a message about the murder on a car door in "your" handwriting, I wonder what you'd do? It might make you think, huh? Pause a little? Try a new approach to life? Reflect? Yes, it might.
It strikes me EVERYONE needed the Zodiac. The (original) bad guys, Hal Snook, the Vallejo PD, the SFPD and even the FBI. Oh, and later, the Chronical and Graysmith and the journalists and Toschi and then Fincher and then that guy from that web site. And others. Yes, it's fascinating.
I don't trust Mr Morrill's opinion much, whatever and wherever it is. That '78 stuff? Ridiculous. Say - Mr Graysmith lies about the names of the victims too though doesn't he? Cheri Jo, Katherine, Officer Radetich?
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Post by Admin Horan on Jul 4, 2014 20:56:36 GMT -6
Smithy: Well, the funny thing is—what he DIDN'T do. Never mentioned Lake Berryessa at all. Less acknowledgment than he gave CJB. Know what else is funny? Read those clippings. Undersheriff Johnson and Capt Townsend announce "evidence," including fingerprints, that seems to link LB to BRS and LHR. When the FBI's reports come back, "no matches," they don' admit they were wrong. They just obfuscate. Funny, that, as well. But what's REALLY funny is, here "Zodiac" has this golden opportunity to rub the noses of the Blue Meanies in some boo-boos—AND HE COMPLETELY IGNORES IT.
That's what's FUNNY.
Funny, because, when the new guy takes over writing the "Zodiac" letters in November, 1969, he suddenly spends precious blue ink "explaining" why the fingerprints DON'T match. Funny, because, there was NOTHING in the newspapers about that. Sooooooooooo, HOW COULD THE KILLER KNOW ABOUT IT? Cops had been quoted saying the prints DID match BRS. So, how could anyone without access to these files know that police had been told, "no match" How? How could they know that, AND know about Fouke and Zelms's bonde "suspect?" No way. Ain't that funny?
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smithy
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Post by smithy on Jul 5, 2014 15:54:03 GMT -6
Mr H., true, Berryessa doesn't seem to have been any fun. The reference "...did in the people in the north bay area." That hardly counts, does it. "Less acknowledgement than he gave CJB." - You're saying Hal Snook was back in the chair for that one are you? The March 13th 1971 letter? Hmmm, it's sometimes difficult to follow which ones you think he wrote and which he didn't. Hal, I mean. Although perhaps I've misinterpreted what you said.
It doesn't surprise me that the guys who are the small town law try and report a positive ("The fingerprints match! We're closing in!") and then don't want to retract it. It's more of the same "Lundblad says it's a .38 bullet hole" approach, ain't it? But it makes you suspicious, I see. Okey doke. Yes, me too. Early letters - Blue Meannies don't get their faces pushed in it. Later letters, Blue Meannies get their face pushed in it. Yes.
Your new guy takes over in November, and I know you don't like any of the cards, and you speak of lots of ink, so I guess the newbie starts scribbling for the "Death Machine" or "Bus Bomb" letter of November 9th. Am I right? Well OK then. If you're going to steal someone's act that's a hell of a stylish way to do it, ain't it? Wading in with a 6-page special which includes a diagram, a clue to a basement location and lots of rebuttal? Big Cojones. "Print this bit" - yessss, "rubbed in your boo-boos" - alrighty. Early letters are all about jumping up and down shouting "I did it, I did it, and here's proof!" yessir... The 9th is all about "I left no evidence!" and "I am a master of decise!" Fair enough.
Your question "HOW COULD THE KILLER KNOW ABOUT IT?" isn't really a question is it? After all, the guy writing the letters - or even EITHER guy writing the letters - wasn't a killer. The writer is addressing why the fingerprints found at the Stine murder scene (the cab) aren't his - ain't he? Does he need to know they don't match to issue a denial? I don't know. I see it makes you suspicious again though, so that's OK. I'm also suspicious.
And how did they know about the "suspect"? Ya think they did know? Ya think Fouke and Zelms really DID make a boo-boo and ...? All that stuff and the BOLO gives me an ache, if I'm honest. It might have been info from the scene or after gathered by a snooping reporter, yep. Access to the files? Gee, I dunno. Not the kind of details from the kind of files that went into making the first two letters so good. But then I guess the timeframe WAS very short, so...
Say - have you seen the photo of "Miss Crustacean" on the jump page (newspaper term, ha!) 22 of the Chronicle of Wednesday 12th? Siv Smeisser? She distracted me from the article next door about large bombs going off in NY, at first. Just sayin'.
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Post by Admin Horan on Jul 5, 2014 18:30:52 GMT -6
Smithy: I mean, there are only two possible motives for pulling a hoax like this: 1. Give somebody an alibi for murder; or, 2. To call attention to all the horsehockey being flung around these "investigations."
1. Give WHO an alibi for murder? Hoffman? Hardly. Allen? Already debunked. Ott/Magris/Perry? Why would SNOOK cover for those guys? Land? Then why did he cast so much doubt on "his" own authenticity at LB? Nope. It's 2.
2. IF one just happens to have access to all the files, one can't help but see that Zodiac's "facts" call attention directly to said horsehockey. Luck? Nope. Intent.
How hard can it be to prove me wrong? ONE of what, four or so pages we know are still being held back? Just one of those would prove me wrong: Andy Jr's statement from BRS; the results of Donald WKW's ballistics check on his P-38; the pages of Nicolai's 1971 report where he discusses the authenticity of the shirt scrap letters (according to other pages in the report, Nicolai believed only two of those three letters were genuine); photos of Darlene's "slack dress."
Those are the pages we KNOW are missing. We KNOW they either prove me right, or prove me wrong. Just ONE of them could prove me wrong. So, why can't Voigt or Graysmith or Butterfield or Rodelli or Wakshull or Hodel or Schulman come up with ONE of them? Them and their "deep conncections" in Law Enforcement?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm?
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smithy
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Post by smithy on Jul 8, 2014 3:10:58 GMT -6
3. To raise money. (Not really, but I just read this and it's hilarious.) www.gofundme.com/ZodiacKillerReward No, the alibi thing would be ridiculous. Ingenious, perhaps, but entirely unnecessary - and yes, there's LB. Which is a mess. Indeed, the letters begin by calling attention to some very strange investigative techniques, do they not. But if they were written to break up a cartel, were they effective? I think they were actually counter-productive, especially in respect to LHR, so... And how does Riverside fit? The "done for fun" bit? I know you don't like it, but it certainly smacks of a "I'll direct the investigation" try-out to me - making sure attention is centred (switched back?) onto men of Cheri's age group, immediate social circle and even previous acquaintance. If there'd been another stand-out crime in the Riverside area in the year following Cheri Jo..... There's a liiiiittle more going on, perhaps. Lord knows what. Maybe this new fund to punish the Zodiac will spring loose some of the pages you refer to. Jeeeeeeeeeeeepers.
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smithy
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Post by smithy on Jul 14, 2014 0:28:17 GMT -6
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smithy
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Post by smithy on Aug 9, 2014 3:10:13 GMT -6
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Post by Admin Horan on Aug 9, 2014 16:30:44 GMT -6
Since there is zero evidence that the person writing the Zodiac letters was actually connected to a murder, and since there is even less "evidence" in the original 408 cipher of July 31, 1969, I'm not terribly worried about whether the 340 is anything more than gibberish. Up to now, I have not pointed out the unbelievably glaringly obvious proof that those letters were a hoax. I have only pointed out the less obvious, and otherwise vetted all possible blind alleys. I have been waiting for someone else to notice the glaringly obvious, perhaps as a result of my own humble efforts to inform the public. It seems that someone called "Bill Robison" has indeed noticed at last one of the glaringly obvious Red Flashing "Hoax!" Warning lights: the fact that a reporter from the Chronicle had a copy of Hoffman's July 5 report when s/he wrote the Chronicle article of July 6. "Woman Slain, Friend Is Shot." If the reporter had merely phoned someone at VPD, then they would have known that a total of nine shell casings had been recovered, not only the seven that Hoffman recovered and noted in his report. tinyurl.com/mwts9ukSo, what? So, in his first two letters, Zodiac also makes it glaringly obvious that HE had a copy of that report. In fact, he focuses much attention on the "errors" in THAT July 6 article in the CHRONICLE. Error one: According to Hoffman, Mike said his window was down when the killer approached the car. The reporter said Mike told police that the passenger had been "torn open" by the shooter. According to later police and newspaper reports, Mike said (and witness George Bryan backed him up on this) that the killer left the scene at high speed, squealing his tires, etc. But in Hoffman's report, the only VPD report that was typed before July 8, VPD has stopped Andy Nickolatos Jr leaving BRS slowly and quietly. There was zero mention of this in the papers, but it's there in Hoffman's report. In his second letter, Zodiac claimed to BE the guy who police knew left BRS slowly and quietly. And for extra good measure, he copied Hoffman's distinctive style "—eing" words, "thus," etc. Zodiac wasn't telling the Dear Editor of the Chronicle things he didn't know. He was pointing out things Dear Editor obviously knew, and had withheld or lied about. Yes, it is glaringly obvious that both a reporter from the Chronicle AND Zodiac had a copy (probably one of the sheets of carbon paper from the triplicate form) of Hoffman's report. Perhaps the SAME copy. Just like in the Stine murder. Chronicle reporter Keith Power had "knowledge" that Stine's trip sheet indicated he had picked up his last fare at Mason and Geary and noted the destination "Washington and Maple." You know, the (wrong) address of the crime scene Zodiac gave in his fourth letter. The funny thing is, SFPD didn't know about the trip sheet, because they thought, even days after Power's article, that the killer was picked up on Nob Hill in front of the Fairmont Hotel. In other words, both Zodiac AND a Chronicle reporter had access to the same source, a source not made public. And again, Zodiac claimed to BE a "suspect" who could not be the killer and who was not mentioned in the papers, but was KNOWN to a Chronicle reporter (as shown in the article of October 12.) There will, of course, be copious discussion of all this in the book and in the appropriate threads here, but for now, I just wanted to revel in the encouragement of someone, anyone, else begging to notice the more glaringly obvious proof that these letters were lame hoax by a Chronicle employee. I won't snicker. Bill didn't snicker. But I will revel. If someone wants to go to Super Duper Secret Zodiac Agent Morf13's website in the link above and ask him why HE didn't notice this, be my guest. But, when you do, DON'T SNICKER. He'll think you're me, and then he'll ban you from his website. But do ask him. He's supposed to "debate" me on this program next month, and he needs to be ready. A lot more ready than he is now. tinyurl.com/ZodiacHoaxRevisitedMorf's not a fraud, like Voigt and Butterfield, and he always shares everything he and his readers find, including that eyebrow-popping Keith Power article of October 17. So, don't snicker at him. But do help him study for our "debate." And say "hi" to Bill for me. I owe him a beer.
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smithy
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Post by smithy on Aug 10, 2014 4:29:20 GMT -6
That Bill Robison guy was a bit of a know-all I thought. Still, one chooses one's own friends. Anyhoot, he's harking back to posts made on your other blog in August 2013 though isn't he? The fact that it's obvious Peterson at least had copies of both Rust's AND Hoffman's reports? I don't call that news. But then maybe it is if you ain't read (or remembered) that already. Or didn't post that piece of newspaper in the first place. Re: "Zodiac claimed to BE the guy who police knew left BRS slowly....". Ya think? He certainly claimed to have left "quite slowly so as not to draw attention to my car" - but he didn't claim to have a Greek name, not exactly. Was that who he meant? Was he screwing with the investigation, just as he tried to in Riverside? Yes I think so. Were his motives selfless? I don't think so. Were they based on trying to get a good story out there, to sell newspapers? Well..... Do you think he copied Hoffman's style? I posted a word list on your last site once, now I can't find it. I'll do it again. I think he definitely had read this scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4076&context=jclc - as I've said elsewhere. (I absolutely adore the reference to "circle" dots on "i's". Of course. It gives me ammunition for the door.) Was his writing style and some of his use of "known" disguise calculated to rub the cops noses in it? Yes, it was. Did Morill spot that from the start? I don't know. Did the FBI? I don't know that either. Did they say so in the correspondence? Well..... Did those same techniques continue throughout the whole series of letters credited to the Zodiac? An interesting question. Do Chronicle reporters have that kind of background? Well...... Carbon paper copies got out-and-about eh? I don't see any reason to disbelieve that Peterson stood there in Vallejo PD's office reading the reports and making notes. So there. Or perhaps he helped write them. How Zodiac got HIS copy? Well that's going to take someone smart like Bill to point out, I guess. Was it Nob Hill that SFPD thought was the collection point for the Stine pickup? Well, he went Pier 64 to SFO, then back to town via 101, then.......? Someone said Toschi and the other guy were researching the theatre district as the pickup spot. No? A Chronicle reporter eh? Not that other guy? Well, pinch me! I'm not sure I want to listen to your debate, really. It might be a bit painful, Like car-crash TV, sort of. Only for the ears.
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Kaiser Frazer Permanente
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Post by Kaiser Frazer Permanente on Aug 15, 2014 21:08:48 GMT -6
LOL! I have to larf at how many days it took Morford to figure out "Bill Robison." Was it the first "Nooooooo" or "Sooooooo" or the 500th?! Those character repeat holds were your Achilles... uh... finger, Prof! Well, besides your zealousness for obscure links to your work. And Morf fancies himself a credible amateur graphologist & linguist? Oy vey! Please. BTW, has anyone weighed Ross Sully boy lately. I am mildly cerous as to how much poundage they have on his ass now.
Gotta go... I have some online Oxford University courses to drive to in my virtual Triumph. Too-da-loo!
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