mike23
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Posts: 57
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Post by mike23 on May 7, 2021 22:39:48 GMT -6
Hey,guys.I know the "Grant's" seen on the flowchart has been puzzling us so I figured I would start a thread where we could toss ideas around.I chose to think of it as not a persons name or a place.So here is my first try as to what it means. I'm assuming this is Maury's flowchart and I know Carl Denaro wrote in his book how Maury liked to play word games and kind of camouflage things rather than simply state it.I went to my Bing search engine and typed in grants,using it as a plural noun.This is what I got: Noun grants 1.A sum of money given by an organization,especially a government,for a particular purpose. So here is how it looks: "Grant's" - 1.Sisman/Platzman Murder 2.Columbia Murder 3.Columbia Murder 4.Sutton Place Vicinity Murders
So if in this case Maury used "grants", to mean giving money for a particular purpose ,is he basically saying these murders were " contract hits" paid for by an organization.The organization either being the Son of Sam Cult or the Radin organization,if you will.Perhaps a combined effort? Well,that's my attempt.I'd love to hear your opinions on this as well as your own ideas on "Grant's".
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Post by Omega on May 8, 2021 4:16:33 GMT -6
This was the type of thread I envisioned here, when I first saw the trailer for the Netflix series and was pausing it at certain frames. Discussing clues and what certain things may mean. Thanks Mike, for starting this "Grant's" thread!
I did an online scan of the "The Ultimate Evil" for "grant" and only Maury listening to Bob Grant on the radio appeared.
"Grant's" seems possessive, since it has an apostrophe in it.
Someone mentioned the bar/cafeteria in the Times Square area and that would seem to be the type of thing/area that would have connections. But, as the poster noted, "Grant's" shut down around 1974, so the time frame for Maury's flow chart (made in 1981) would seem off.
I don't know if this has been mentioned as a possibility, but maybe, "Grant's" is in reference to "Grant's Tomb" located on the west side of Manhattan, near the Hudson River and not far from Columbia University. Also with the "Columbia murders" being mentioned under "Grant's" on the chart.
It's the place where President Ulysses S. Grant is buried and gives off a sort of Untermyer Park vibe:
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mike23
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by mike23 on May 8, 2021 8:49:28 GMT -6
Omega thanx for responding!I did notice the possessive but figured maybe Maury was trying to be clever and just threw it in there! I just hoped to get us sleuthing on this! I also immediately thought of Grants Department store,when I first saw it on the chart.We had a Grants on main street in New Rochelle,which closed not too long before Fred Cowan did his thing on Valentines Day '77.Grants national headquarters were at One Astor Plaza in Times Square from 1972-1976,if that means anything.Probably not,ha ha!Grants tomb is definitely interesting.Heck, maybe someone told Maury,the plans for those murders were discussed in the shadows of Grants tomb,I know,it sounds like a scene from a bad 70s movies -clandestine meetings outside creepy Grants tomb.Well its fun to ponder,anyway!
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ace
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Posts: 184
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Post by ace on May 8, 2021 9:23:39 GMT -6
Damn. It’s something Sisman, Camaro, Michael Carr and Mr. RE are all connected to. Michael did photography, Sisman did photography. Camaro made at least one porno. It could be something as simple as a photo processing lab. Just spitballing, you never know when one idea might lead to another. BUT- it’s directly connected to Sisman’s murder, as well as 3 others. Thinking bar, a place to meet up before or after. Ever get up to any hijinx with friends in school and agree to meet up at a designated spot if the group gets split up?
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ace
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Posts: 184
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Post by ace on May 8, 2021 9:26:02 GMT -6
I’ve been looking for digital archives of phone books (don’t laugh, lol). No luck but any ideas? Archives, searchable records...
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Post by mannygrossman on May 8, 2021 10:38:16 GMT -6
Now who's this "Wendy Kaplan"?
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mike23
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by mike23 on May 8, 2021 11:21:05 GMT -6
WK possible suspect in Denaro shooting .Rumored to have NYC occultic ties.
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mike23
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by mike23 on May 8, 2021 12:45:09 GMT -6
Should we pass on "Grant's" and move on to "Ted B"?
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ace
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Posts: 184
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Post by ace on May 8, 2021 13:33:34 GMT -6
Should we pass on "Grant's" and move on to "Ted B"? It'll turn up.
We need more of Terry's flowcharts. Some names are in quotes, like "Ted B". Some aren't, like this Beasley or Wendy Kaplan. CBS "producer" was in quotes. Do quotes denote title or alias?
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ace
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Posts: 184
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Post by ace on May 8, 2021 14:01:35 GMT -6
Was Platzman a call girl?
Sisman was said to be murdered over a snuff film. But what about the others connected to "Grant's"? Stealing a page from Prof. Horan this feels more like coke and/or call girl stuff. I think it's possible Sisman was sitting on a lot of blackmail material, snuff film or no snuff film, regardless.
"4, 5, 6, Sutton Place vicinity murders". Omega said that area was pretty swank, wtf are all those murders doing there? People move to swanky areas to avoid the possibility of being murdered! Comedy club nearby, comics looooooove coke, just sayin.
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Post by Omega on May 8, 2021 17:06:39 GMT -6
Was Platzman a call girl?
Sisman was said to be murdered over a snuff film. But what about the others connected to "Grant's"? Stealing a page from Prof. Horan this feels more like coke and/or call girl stuff. I think it's possible Sisman was sitting on a lot of blackmail material, snuff film or no snuff film, regardless.
There is no evidence or reporting out there that Elizabeth Platzman was a call girl. In her case, it seems it was a classic situation of "wrong place, wrong time". Sisman, a different story.
But, on the subject of call girls and another evasive name, from the chart, the "GM Joe" character. Also from the same spot in "The Ultimate Evil" where the possible "CBS" affiliations are mentioned:
"Regarding the porno and call girl system, blackmail was sometimes employed to keep the girls in line, Vinny said, adding that Camaro sometimes used the Auto Pub restaurant in Manhattan's General Motors Building as one location where well-heeled clients and collegiate call girls met. Enter the world of television. Vinny wrote that Camaro appeared in a "home porno flick" with a woman who held a responsible production post with a TV network in Manhattan. The woman's title and network were specified. Vinny didn't know her name, but he did have her description—which was so precise I identified her after just one phone call to a friend in the television industry. Since the woman was not an on-camera personality, Vinny couldn't have picked up her description from a TV screen."
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mike23
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Posts: 57
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"Grant's"
May 8, 2021 18:38:18 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by mike23 on May 8, 2021 18:38:18 GMT -6
In case anyone wants to review the murders listed underneath "Grants" in the flow chart,on page 507 of the original TUE,they are discussed.Two Columbia University related murders and a third Manhattan murder,which may be a Sutton Place incident.I was too lazy to grab my revised edition.They seem to be call girl related,with our pal Camaro suspected as to involvement.
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ace
Full Member
Posts: 184
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"Grant's"
May 8, 2021 18:46:09 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ace on May 8, 2021 18:46:09 GMT -6
In case anyone wants to review the murders listed underneath "Grants" in the flow chart,on page 507 of the original TUE,they are discussed.Two Columbia University related murders and a third Manhattan murder,which may be a Sutton Place incident.I was too lazy to grab my revised edition.They seem to be call girl related,with our pal Camaro suspected as to involvement. Thank you. The book is so dense and lacking of an index that sometimes it’s a real chore to consult.
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Post by Omega on May 8, 2021 19:26:00 GMT -6
In case anyone wants to review the murders listed underneath "Grants" in the flow chart,on page 507 of the original TUE,they are discussed.Two Columbia University related murders and a third Manhattan murder,which may be a Sutton Place incident.I was too lazy to grab my revised edition.They seem to be call girl related,with our pal Camaro suspected as to involvement. Thank you. The book is so dense and lacking of an index that sometimes it’s a real chore to consult. It was right after the part I mentioned before on the General Motors Building:
"The call girl operation, Vinny said, was responsible for at least two murders in Manhattan—both linked to Columbia University. One victim was a male medical or graduate student (name unknown) who was slain after learning a young woman he was dating was involved with the ring. Vinny said she told the victim about it, and he was killed either because he raised a fuss trying to wean her away from the group's clutches or simply because he'd acquired inside knowledge of the operation. "Camaro had something to do with that," Vinny wrote. "I think they tried to make it look like a robbery." Subsequent investigation revealed that at least two unsolved homicides bore similarities to the slaying to which Vinny referred. A Columbia grad student was slain in the immediate area of the school in February 1981. After dropping off his girlfriend, he returned to the street and his killer tossed some money to the pavement and said, "Hey, pal, you dropped this." When the student turned around, he was shot dead. Police said the victim's girlfriend witnessed at least part of the incident. Another victim was a medical resident at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center, which was affiliated with the university. He was shot dead while walking on a street near the hospital in the autumn of 1981. The other murder Vinny specified was said to have been that of a coed—probably a Columbia or Barnard student—who was slain in Manhattan after trying to extricate herself from the call girl network. Vinny, quoting sources other than Berkowitz, said that Camaro also played a role in this murder, and said he thought the victim was disfigured in some way by her killer or killers. If Camaro indeed had a hand in those murders, he didn't operate alone, Vinny said. "He had his own guy, a landscaper or gardener. He was a Puerto Rican or some kind of Hispanic. I was told this jerk worked at a northern Manhattan park and also did some part-time gardener work at Columbia."
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Jon
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Post by Jon on May 8, 2021 22:26:49 GMT -6
Great discussion, everybody.
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