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Post by mannygrossman on May 4, 2021 10:55:01 GMT -6
Jess D just hipped me to the case of Leslie Zaret. She was found murdered in Flushing/Bayside on Aug 17, 1974. A hairbrush was found let's just say...innapropriately placed.........in her body. Anybody remember the passage in TUE about a murder where they used a "hairbrush" that Berkowitz witnessed? I think this is a very interesting potential connection to SOS. Remember that the writer of the Borelli letter wrote "The women of Queens are Z prettyest of all." Was this a reference to Zaret?
See, it's this type of stuff which to me is the most important to discuss. It's an actual case with an actual potential connection to SOS. Not some BS about a some theoretical murder in LA that was theoretically tied to Manson that was theoretically tied to Mentzer which is theoretically tied to Radin which is theoretically tied to LI which is theoretically tied to The Process which is theoretically tied to the 22. Anyhow, if you feel this is worthy of further discussion, let me know and I can start talking about it with my guests on the video series.
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Post by mannygrossman on May 4, 2021 11:46:28 GMT -6
Berkie is out of the army in June 74 so he could have witnessed this murder only if he was involved with the murderers by August 74. He says he met Mike Carr in 75, so how does Berkowitz witness this murder? All assuming of course this is the murder referred to in TUE. we need to crowdsource more info on this one.
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ace
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Post by ace on May 4, 2021 13:09:26 GMT -6
Berkie is out of the army in June 74 so he could have witnessed this murder only if he was involved with the murderers by August 74. He says he met Mike Carr in 75, so how does Berkowitz witness this murder? All assuming of course this is the murder referred to in TUE. we need to crowdsource more info on this one. He could have seen it if they filmed it. Pure speculation, but I would not be surprised.
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mike23
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Post by mike23 on May 4, 2021 13:48:43 GMT -6
Very possible ,Ace.You wonder what other "movies",aside from a possible Moskowitz film,might have been taken away from Sismans' brownstone that Halloween night.
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Post by mannygrossman on May 4, 2021 14:58:19 GMT -6
Berkie is out of the army in June 74 so he could have witnessed this murder only if he was involved with the murderers by August 74. He says he met Mike Carr in 75, so how does Berkowitz witness this murder? All assuming of course this is the murder referred to in TUE. we need to crowdsource more info on this one. He could have seen it if they filmed it. Pure speculation, but I would not be surprised. Never thought of that. As speculation, it's great. I think this case has real potential to be connected to SOS somehow. Maybe Reeve Rockman connected?
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Post by Omega on May 4, 2021 14:58:30 GMT -6
Anybody remember the passage in TUE about a murder where they used a "hairbrush" that Berkowitz witnessed? I think this is a very interesting potential connection to SOS.
That came from Veronica Leuken, the religious woman from Bayside, Queens who use to hold those religious seance-like events in Flushing Meadows Park.
She relayed this info around the time she was being very mysterious with her communications to both Maury and Steve Dunleavy (NY Post journalist)
People confided in her with info. She also gave "The Ultimate Evil" world the infamous "Reeve Rockman"
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ace
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Post by ace on May 4, 2021 15:44:43 GMT -6
Anyhow, if you feel this is worthy of further discussion, let me know and I can start talking about it with my guests on the video series. Oh absolutely. One question could lead to another and the next thing you know you've got a key address or the last name of someone important related to one of the shootings or another facet of the operation altogether.
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Post by bustedflush on May 12, 2021 7:35:59 GMT -6
Berkie is out of the army in June 74 so he could have witnessed this murder only if he was involved with the murderers by August 74. He says he met Mike Carr in 75, so how does Berkowitz witness this murder? All assuming of course this is the murder referred to in TUE. we need to crowdsource more info on this one. Hi all, new here. What are the odds Berkie lied about witnessing this. Maybe he just heard about it and decided to place him self at the scene. You know because he is a sociopath. Anyway enjoying the forum, and the vids. Read TUE a few times, and completely got sucked back in with the Netflix doc.
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mike23
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Post by mike23 on May 12, 2021 8:45:45 GMT -6
Hello,Busted flush!Welcome to the forum.You could indeed be correct that Berkowitz did not witness this crime.The information for his witnessing this horrible murder,as pointed out by Omega,came from Veronica Leuken.It is quite possible that was incorrect.Berkowitz,to my knowledge,has never talked of this case himself.Enjoy the forum!
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Post by tomfromqueens on May 30, 2021 12:02:17 GMT -6
Hello everyone, another newbie, first post. Like many here I’m sure, the Netflix series/podcasts and re-release jump-started my interest, which had quieted down the past few years prior. I have mixed feelings on the series, but won’t digress for purposes of this thread. On a positive note, whatever disappointment i’ve felt has been tempered by my recent discovery of Manny’s videos, which have been great. Seeing the lay of the land at Riverdale (AH Howell) and Van Cortlandt park (Wahlstrom murder) while Manny unfolds the narrative is priceless. For as little as Manny knows about Queens, I’m similarly unfamiliar with the Bronx and Westchester. I’ve always been fascinated by the Bronx because of its mountainous terrain and topography, street stairs, etc., but still haven’t been there a whole lot. The Denaro scene, however, is basically right where I grew up. Also finished Carl’s book recently, was surprised to see that I had a different mental picture of exactly where Peck’s Pub was. I think the location I had in mind was called ‘The Bowne Park Grill’ or something close to that - 161st or 162nd Street and 29th Avenue. Also wanted to mention Manny’s Karen Wahlstrom segment gave me chills I haven’t felt since my first reading of T.U.E. I’ve got a few more to watch and look forward to more to follow.
From 2002-2018 I lived very close to the site of the Zaret murder, but had never heard of it until the local papers had stories around this time of year in 2014 I think - there was a 30th reunion planned for John Bowne HS class of 1974, where she had attended, and police were hearing word of some chatter among the alumni suggesting that some may have known more about what happened that night. I got the sense they were pushing the news stories to try and compel someone to come forward, and maybe even planned on quietly hanging around the reunion and poking around a bit. But I never heard that anything came of it. Very sad story, and of course terrifying.
Never crossed my mind there could be any connection to the 22 Disciples, but Manny’s speculative mention of “the wemon of Queens are Z prettyist of all” gave me chills. Maybe just a far reaching coincidence, but the various misspellings, grammatical oddities and such, especially in the Borelli letter, have always confounded me. Are they intentional and cleverly devised clues in themselves, or just the product of poor writing skills? There’s really no plausible explanation I can think of for replacing “the” with “Z”. Did it mean something? Those letters are truly enigmatic. And can someone tell me, why is it virtually impossible to find a complete copy of the Breslin letter? Not the transcript, but the letter itself. I’ve seen it shown more completely on docs including the Netflix series, but finding a “hard copy” on the internet has proven maddeningly elusive.
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Post by Omega on May 30, 2021 15:41:27 GMT -6
From 2002-2018 I lived very close to the site of the Zaret murder, but had never heard of it until the local papers had stories around this time of year in 2014 I think - there was a 30th reunion planned for John Bowne HS class of 1974, where she had attended, and police were hearing word of some chatter among the alumni suggesting that some may have known more about what happened that night. I got the sense they were pushing the news stories to try and compel someone to come forward, and maybe even planned on quietly hanging around the reunion and poking around a bit. But I never heard that anything came of it. Very sad story, and of course terrifying. Hi Tom and welcome!
I heard about the Zaret murder a long time ago, but forgot about it until Manny had started this thread here. I didn't know that was what Maury was talking about in "The Ultimate Evil" when he relays the story that the religious woman, Veronica Lueken relayed about "a mutilation murder three years ago and says they used a hairbrush on the girl—and Berkowitz witnessed it"
The NY Post picked up the story about the class reunion chatter you mentioned, but nothing was revealed about what the conversation was about. It had to be that someone had a name of someone involved or revealed that they actually had been on the scene at the time of the murder and witnessed it. There had to be more to the story for the Post to report it. Here is the story in the NY Post from 2006:
I guess you lived around the Bayside/Oakland Gardens area in Queens. Bayside definitely had it's links to the Son of Sam case in more ways than one - the Elephas Disco shootings, Veronica Lueken lived there, a loaded .38 revolver was supposedly mailed to Berkowitz at the Marcy Correctional Psychiatric facility from a Bayside postmark, the "Blue Dolphin" diner was located there, mentioned in "The Ultimate Evil" where major cult drug activity may have happened and where "Reeve Rockman" hung out (most likely this was actually the Blue Bay Diner near the Long Island Expressway) and possibly this Leslie Zaret murder link. All Bayside Queens.
It's interesting to hear the takes of someone living in the specific areas (i.e Yonkers, Pelham Bay Bronx, Bayside Queens, etc) that were affiliated with the Son of Sam. You never know when a piece of information can evolve.
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Post by tomfromqueens on May 30, 2021 16:45:48 GMT -6
Thanks for the welcome Omega - I actually grew up less than 2 blocks from the Denaro scene and I went to elementary school with his kid brother so we got some vague feedback at the time that something bad had happened, but at 9 years of age I don’t think I really grasped what exactly happened. But without that personal connection we wouldn’t have learned about it until much later. I have Carl’s book, maybe one day i’ll get up the courage to try and contact him.
I lived in a few different locations in Bayside and nearby Auburndale dating back to 1995, but the nearest address to the Zaret scene was just up the street from the northern limit of Springfield Blvd, several blocks directly north of the Middle School playground where she was found. I was also a short walk from the Elephas scene. My real introduction to the details of each shooting began by buying out-of-print SOS books on eBay, first the George Carpozi book which I thought was an excellent reference for basic details on each shooting (but while still unaware that the official version of the case was a whitewash). Anyway, after confirming the house address the Lupo/Placido car was parked at, I checked it out and saw that the house still looked the same and still had the white wooden picket fence. Now it’s been replaced by a McMansion, Korean “church”, something of that ilk. Looks nothing like before. 211th Street does not see heavy traffic, so it was easy to stand right in the center of the road knowing you were virtually right at the spot where Judy staggered out of the car and collapsed in the middle of the street. An eerie feeling.
I’ve wondered if the ‘Blue Dolphin’ diner is the one opposite St. Francis Prep HS on the other side of the LI Expwy, sounds like the one you’re describing. BTW, I’ve come to learn over the years that St. Francis Prep has a long history of perv faculty. One in particular involved a male teacher who would try to groom girls during their school tenure but only try to “date” them after they graduated. Not sure if men-on-boys pedophilia was part of the mix. Those darn Catholic schools . . .
Obviously my memory was faulty on the timing of the John Bowne HS reunion news stories - I got the 30-year reunion right but my math landed me closer to what would be a 40-year scenario. Anyway, I think I saw the exact same article you posted when it was first published. Manny made mention of the Veronica Leuken detail in his initial post, but it went over my head ( I just discovered this message board yesterday and am trying to zoom through all these threads as fast as I can). That’s a major “holy s***” moment. I have read T.U.E. 2 or 3 times but it is so dense with details that you never remember everything. No bells went off in my head when I read the Leslie Zaret story, I remember just being intrigued to read about a really old cold case in my then-current neighborhood.
My 1999 printing of T.U.E. Is locked in a file cabinet at my work office, which i’ve visited a total of once in the past 14 months due to the plandemic. But I did buy the new edition on Amazon. Time to look up that mention! Do you remember by any chance roughly where in the book it can be found? I vividly remember some of the other Leuken details about the house on Van Duzer St, the ditching of the car in Little Neck Bay, Janet Jacklin, etc., but not that one, so I’m thinking maybe it’s buried somewhere later in the narrative.
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Post by Omega on May 30, 2021 18:51:35 GMT -6
My 1999 printing of T.U.E. Is locked in a file cabinet at my work office, which i’ve visited a total of once in the past 14 months due to the plandemic. But I did buy the new edition on Amazon. Time to look up that mention! Do you remember by any chance roughly where in the book it can be found? I vividly remember some of the other Leuken details about the house on Van Duzer St, the ditching of the car in Little Neck Bay, Janet Jacklin, etc., but not that one, so I’m thinking maybe it’s buried somewhere later in the narrative. The Zaret-related reference can be found on page 201 in the 2021 re-release of "The Ultimate Evil". Chapter is "Into The Maze". It is also the page that goes into the Van Duzer Street house story. Still can't believe that story Maury relays of the bartender saying he lived in the EXACT SAME HOUSE! Yeah, right!
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Post by tomfromqueens on May 30, 2021 19:31:59 GMT -6
Thanks, I’ll check it out and refresh my very rusty memory. Mentioned in the same place as the SI house, I can’t believe I have no recall of it.
That Veronica Leuken was a frustrating player in the investigation. She always had the most intriguing tips but most of it went nowhere. Her religious claims have always come across like a con game, so her credibility was always highly questionable. IIRC this was one of the issues Henry Cinotti ran into by considering her a reliable source. Seeing from Manny’s video that Cinotti is a devout Christian, nothing wrong with that, but he may have had a simpatico with Leuken that caused him to trust her too much.
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Post by Admin Horan on May 31, 2021 17:18:18 GMT -6
Every single "source" in Maury's book is, at best, a bunch of "intriguing tips but most of it goes nowhere." How is Veronica Leuken any less reliable than "Vinny?" We don't even know real names of PLACES Maury talks about.
I just don't know how useful any of Maury's book really is, let alone how he himself, as a journalist, is any more credible than Robert Graysmith.
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