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Post by mannygrossman on Apr 30, 2021 14:25:24 GMT -6
Just wanted to start a dedicated thread for the Carl Denaro shooting site walk and talk.
I am filming this Sunday May 2nd in Flushing Queens.
We will see the site of the former Peck's Bar and Grill, walk along the exact route Rosemary Keenan drove her blue VW and end up at the exact parking spot where unfortunately both her and Carl were shot at, with Carl receiving a bullet in the head.
I will be taking this walk and talk with a very special guest host who will help guide us along the route. For obvious reasons I can't say any more about the guest at this point. Just wanted to make you guys aware of what was coming up in my series on Son of Sam. So far the reaction to the videos have been unbelievably positive and I have learned more than I ever expected. This series of mine is a crowd driven affair, so please do not hesitate to send me ideas for videos, or questions you'd like me to explore in this or any other video.
Many thanks to all of you for your amazing support. I never expected it and it's driving me to do more of these videos, which have been haunting (especially the Wahlstrom one) but incredibly satisfying to produce. As always, thanks to JEss D and Jon M for all their amazing help behind the scenes.
I'll post a link to the Denaro vid on this thread sometime on Sunday early evening. Monday the latest if I hit any unexpected editing snags.
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Post by mannygrossman on May 2, 2021 19:45:29 GMT -6
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Post by mannygrossman on May 3, 2021 14:55:12 GMT -6
For the record, Carl will start to be a more regular guest on the show. He's already agreed to do the Lomino/Demasi shooting site and he has an open invite to any other video he wishes to participate in. We have discussed the need to go deeper into the case in future videos. So exciting stuff is coming down the pike!
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ace
Full Member
Posts: 184
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Post by ace on May 3, 2021 15:08:22 GMT -6
And the Dorfler residence was just 3 blocks away from Carl’s shooting. Interesting. I can’t just chalk that up to coincidence.
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Post by mannygrossman on May 3, 2021 15:16:38 GMT -6
And the Dorfler residence was just 3 blocks away from Carl’s shooting. Interesting. I can’t just chalk that up to coincidence. He said something in my interview that went over my head at the time, but I think he was trying to say something. It had to do with the car that ROsemary let pass when she was at the stop sign right before they pulled over to make out. I guess one theory is the shooters were in that car. I gotta get him to say more about that next time. The Dorfler connection is super interesting. We did not go into it though because we purposely left out some info so as to tease his book to the audience. Carls a great guy and I want to help him sell some books to help repay his graciousness at coming out with me. So we were a little light on seriously hardcore SOS info in our first video. This will change as we do more vids. Next video with him will be a walk and talk of the Lomino/Demasi sites. We'll probably do that one in two weeks from now.
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mike23
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by mike23 on May 3, 2021 19:25:34 GMT -6
Also interesting as a,Dorfler,also appears as a former resident of 316 Warburton Ave. Yonkers NY.🤔🤫
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ace
Full Member
Posts: 184
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Post by ace on May 3, 2021 20:54:16 GMT -6
Also interesting as a,Dorfler,also appears as a former resident of 316 Warburton Ave. Yonkers NY.🤔🤫 I'd love to know which side of the street they found those shell casings on. They would want the shortest route back to a safehouse, say one on 156th. That neighborhood has a lot of bushes and trees, otherwise known as cover. If I'm giving them too much credit, they did elude police for a little over a year.
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mike23
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by mike23 on May 3, 2021 21:15:40 GMT -6
After reading Carl's book and hearing of a possible cult get-together,party or whatever you'd call it,in the area,I figured it was maybe impromptu. You know they're bored,so someone says "Hey,let's go do one like in the Bronx",and they just hit the street.However your post Ace makes me wonder if there was indeed a more strategic plan that night.
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Post by Omega on May 4, 2021 5:00:57 GMT -6
I'd love to know which side of the street they found those shell casings on. The shelling casings seem to be getting some attention recently in the comments sections of Manny's videos. I don't know if the intention is to say a different weapon was used in Carl's shooting or if Carl's shooting may not have been part of the Son of Sam story. My feelings is that the pre-Virginia Voskerichian shootings (pre-March 1977) may not have been scripted or planned out to follow the ".44 caliber/Son of Sam" plot line.
Some of the shootings, like Lauria and Freund, the victims could have been direct targets (for reasons yet defined).
Others, like Carl's and the Lomino/Demasi shootings may have been, for lack of a better term (apologies), "joy ride" shootings - meaning, something along the lines that Mike23 alluded to, random victims at unplanned events for no apparent reason than do something sick and sadistic for a laugh.
Different people, different weapons used, some planned out and targeted, some off the cuff and at the spur of the moment. But, all done by the same group.
When it gets to the Virginia Voskerichian shooting and the three shootings after that, the cult/group changes plan, since the NYPD has now defined a serial killer is on the loose (the March 1977 NYPD/Mayor Beame press conference), and the cult now goes more scripted to follow the serial killer angle, since it's in the media and public's eye and use the exact same .44 weapon.
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Post by mannygrossman on May 4, 2021 6:22:09 GMT -6
Also interesting as a,Dorfler,also appears as a former resident of 316 Warburton Ave. Yonkers NY.🤔🤫 I have heard about that. The party in FLushing seems like the best explanation for what happened. Carl's case is a really tough one because no witnesses and police didn't even realize "son of sam" existed until several more months after he was shot.
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Post by mannygrossman on May 4, 2021 6:22:59 GMT -6
Also interesting as a,Dorfler,also appears as a former resident of 316 Warburton Ave. Yonkers NY.🤔🤫 I'd love to know which side of the street they found those shell casings on. They would want the shortest route back to a safehouse, say one on 156th. That neighborhood has a lot of bushes and trees, otherwise known as cover. If I'm giving them too much credit, they did elude police for a little over a year. Great question if they found casings. According to Carl he was shot with a .44 which does not, to the best of my knowledge, eject casings.
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Post by mannygrossman on May 4, 2021 6:26:32 GMT -6
I'd love to know which side of the street they found those shell casings on. The shelling casings seem to be getting some attention recently in the comments sections of Manny's videos. I don't know if the intention is to say a different weapon was used in Carl's shooting or if Carl's shooting may not have been part of the Son of Sam story. My feelings is that the pre-Virginia Voskerichian shootings (pre-March 1977) may not have been scripted or planned out to follow the ".44 caliber/Son of Sam" plot line.
Some of the shootings, like Lauria and Freund, the victims could have been direct targets (for reasons yet defined).
Others, like Carl's and the Lomino/Demasi shootings may have been, for lack of a better term (apologies), "joy ride" shootings - meaning, something along the lines that Mike23 alluded to, random victims at unplanned events for no apparent reason than do something sick and sadistic for a laugh.
Different people, different weapons used, some planned out and targeted, some off the cuff and at the spur of the moment. But, all done by the same group.
When it gets to the Virginia Voskerichian shooting and the three shootings after that, the cult/group changes plan, since the NYPD has now defined a serial killer is on the loose (the March 1977 NYPD/Mayor Beame press conference), and the cult now goes more scripted to follow the serial killer angle, since it's in the media and public's eye and use the exact same .44 weapon.
Carl was pretty adamant to me that shell casings were not found at his site and that a .44 caliber bullet was found in Rosemary's back seat. It's really hard to speculate on the shooting because as you rightly point out, the "son of sam" hadn't even been invented yet. There's no doubt multiple .44's were used.
One other theory is "cult initiation." Like someone had to shoot Carl in order to be inducted into the Cult. I have heard it positied that Karen Wahlstrom was killed for the same reason....cult initiation. The Karen Wahlstrom story is getting kind of interesting behind the scenes. There will be a follow up video at some point.
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Post by mannygrossman on May 4, 2021 9:19:41 GMT -6
Carl was pretty adamant to me that shell casings were not found at his site and that a .44 caliber bullet was found in Rosemary's back seat. It's really hard to speculate on the shooting because as you rightly point out, the "son of sam" hadn't even been invented yet. There's no doubt multiple .44's were used.
One other theory is "cult initiation." Like someone had to shoot Carl in order to be inducted into the Cult. I have heard it positied that Karen Wahlstrom was killed for the same reason....cult initiation. The Karen Wahlstrom story is getting kind of interesting behind the scenes. There will be a follow up video at some point.
Pg. 299, 1999 edition (and I believe pg. 205 in the 2021 edition) "We believed that Berkowitz probably didn't shoot Denaro, because of the assailant's obvious difficulty controlling the weapon, and because three shell casings reportedly were found at the scene. The .44 revolver doesn't eject shell casings and no casings were found at the other sites. This too suggested a different shooter and a weapon other than Berkowitz's Bulldog."
Must be something in the water, Manny, because last night I started thinking about an initiation as well. A Friday night "house party" would be a good cover story, regardless. "We've been here all night, officer".
Carl and Rosemary had to have been profiled outside the bar. This being a neighborhood bar, an "old man bar", not a fancy disco, it was unlikely that those two were going to drive too far from the general area. That's just easy pickins, when you think about it. People meet at bars. One drives the other home. They arrive, talk for a bit, finish a song on the radio, stumble for the words and the right time to ask, "you wanna come in?" But I bet there was a contingency plan all the same.
Speaking of the neighborhood, they had to have had some familiar faces in the group, no? Even in my midwestern, suburban neighborhood, "everybody knows (or recognizes) everybody". This was all going down evening/night time, but it was Friday night and plenty of people would be up and out.
Cool man. YOu should try to address these things to Carl directly in my comment section. I'll let him know and I'm sure he'll respond in some way. We now have access to these people direct because of the vids so we should all be taking advantage of that. NOt being privy to the original police reports, I really have no clue what the truth is other than what Carl told us all. I do agree that it is a good thing to question because that is what solving a mystery is all about. Regarding the bar, Carl is adamant and 100 percent sure there was nobody there that he didn't know. His shooting is particularly frustrating because of all these issues you bring up. The truth is, no one really knows 100% for sure what went down that night.
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Post by mannygrossman on May 4, 2021 9:49:38 GMT -6
<abbr data-timestamp="1620141581000" title="May 4, 2021 10:19:41 GMT -5" class="o-timestamp time">May 4, 2021 10:19:41 GMT -5</abbr> mannygrossman said:
Cool man. YOu should try to address these things to Carl directly in my comment section. I'll let him know and I'm sure he'll respond in some way. We now have access to these people direct because of the vids so we should all be taking advantage of that. NOt being privy to the original police reports, I really have no clue what the truth is other than what Carl told us all. I do agree that it is a good thing to question because that is what solving a mystery is all about. Regarding the bar, Carl is adamant and 100 percent sure there was nobody there that he didn't know. His shooting is particularly frustrating because of all these issues you bring up. The truth is, no one really knows 100% for sure what went down that night. I stuck it in there under user TheGV50's comment. I just hope Carl doesn't think we're busting balls.
Cool. It's ok, questions are good. Carl has a very thick skin. This won't bother him. I'll be speaking to him later today. I'll tell him to take a look.
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mike23
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by mike23 on May 4, 2021 10:23:06 GMT -6
The idea of Carl's shooting being one deemed necessary for iniation to the group is very interesting.Over the years this shooting and Virginia Voskerichian have been rumored to in fact been "iniation" shootings.Also adding another layer to that,both of these are in Queens,and both are the only 2 shootings alleged to have been done by women.Remember ,the letter ,telling us very specifically how the "Queens wemon are the prettiest of all".I'm picturing a 2- headed monster here,one head clearly Yonkers and the other head Queens .Possibly 2 established groups bridged together for that season of time.Each with their own agendas but here co-operating as a killing machine.Well,its a thought anyway!
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