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Post by Omega on Apr 24, 2021 16:08:55 GMT -6
Back in 2017, when there were some 40th anniversary specials on the Son of Sam airing that summer, the Investigation Discovery network (aka "ID" network) aired a rather respectable program called "Son of Sam: The Hunt For A Killer".
The show ran about an hour and a half and did a good job gathering a wide array of people directly involved and affected by the Son of Sam. Victims like Carl Denaro and Robert Violante were in it. Victim family members like the siblings of Donna Lauria and Valentina Suriani were interviewed, most likely for the first time on camera. Captain Joe Borrelli and some of the main living detectives, who worked the case, spoke and provided details, as well as others were in it.
One interesting participant who was interviewed was Wheat Carr. I can't recall another recent, on camera appearance, that Wheat may have done.
Investigation Discovery network use to have some of the deleted/extra scenes from the documentary on their website (no longer).
In one of the extra scenes, which did not air in the original broadcast, Wheat relayed the following on Maury Terry:
“Maury Terry, my brother John, Maury’s cousin – they all went to high school together in Yonkers. Maury Terry wrote a book to make a buck and get even with some injury he perceived had been directed at him in high school”
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Post by mannygrossman on Apr 24, 2021 17:03:23 GMT -6
As I'm learning from doing my series, Maury knew a lot more and was involved more with these characters while in high school. It's possible Wheat may be right. Maury made it seem like he barely remembered John Carr, but the opposite is true. In my latest Wahlstrom vid I relate a story about how Maury saw "Scout" come pick up John Carr at Sacred Heart. YOu don't remember a story like that without knowing these characters a lot more than he let on.
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Post by Omega on Apr 24, 2021 17:30:05 GMT -6
As I'm learning from doing my series, Maury knew a lot more and was involved more with these characters while in high school. It's possible Wheat may be right. Maury made it seem like he barely remembered John Carr, but the opposite is true. In my latest Wahlstrom vid I relate a story about how Maury saw "Scout" come pick up John Carr at Sacred Heart. YOu don't remember a story like that without knowing these characters a lot more than he let on. That part Manny, in "The Ultimate Evil", where Maury had to be reminded by his cousin that he knew John Carr in high school, never sounded right and I don't know why Maury would have wanted to include it in the story.
From "The Ultimate Evil":
"I then told Jim about a Christmas Day conversation I had with my cousin, Mary Ellen, whom I hadn't seen for several months. In describing what we were working on, I mentioned John Carr and said I knew very little about him. Mary Ellen chided my faulty memory. "You knew John Carr. He was in our freshman class in high school." "Are you serious?" "He was in another homeroom," she explained. "He was thin, had light, sandy-colored hair, and he was always cutting up. This was high school, and yet he was always throwing spitballs around and doing other antics that were more like a kid in grammar school would do. But he obviously thought it was all funny." As Mary Ellen spoke, I was starting to remember John Carr. "What else do you recall?" "Not much. He wore a red blazer a lot, and I can remember that he wanted to join the Piper's Band." With the mention of the Piper's Band, my mind switched to the Borrelli letter. The sentence, "Ugh, me hoot it 'urts, sonny boy," was written with a Scottish inflection and was a puzzle the police were unable to solve. They couldn't explain how Berkowitz, allegedly the letter's author, had come up with a Scottish phrase; or, more importantly, why he did. However, John Carr was interested in playing in a bagpipe band, complete with kilts, while a high school freshman in Yonkers. "Did he actually join it?" I asked. "I don't know if he did or not. But he liked the whole idea, and he may have tried out or gone to one of their meetings. Do you remember him now?" "I think so." When I pulled out an old yearbook later, I put the name and face together at once. I had indeed known John Carr for one year. But I hadn't seen or thought of him since we were freshmen, sixteen years before. My memories were vague."
And a little later on:
"When I related the Carr story to Mitteager, I did so sheepishly, saying that I should have remembered him. "Why?" Mitteager asked. "A kid you knew casually sixteen years ago? You didn't even hang out with him after school. Screw it"
Even if Maury was just a casual follower of the case in Yonkers, most people would remember someone they went to high school with, whose family's name was all over the place after Berkowitz's arrest. But, Maury wasn't a casual follower of the story. He was investigating it directly as journalist.
He should have left out the not remembering part out of the story, if it was true. But, was it his way to bring in the Scottish references and the Borrelli letter correlation into the mix and also to relay that he pulled out his high school yearbook to look at John Carr's picture and noted the similar features to the Lomino/Demasi shooter sketch?
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Post by marionumber1 on Apr 24, 2021 19:13:23 GMT -6
It did strike me as weird too, but I don't know how much to read into it because memory can be a very funny thing. Could it be, for instance, that Maury had only know him as "John" back in high school, and it didn't click until his cousin began describing him? After that, he could have easily recalled various encounters and things he witnessed, but until that particular person was in his mind, it just wouldn't have surfaced. There could still be something weird about it. But I have a feeling that if Maury was hiding something about his affiliation with John Carr, it would be less to do with him trying to slight Carr over some unspecified spat in high school and more to do with Maury not being on the up-and-up from the beginning. After all, John Paul Ranieri did say that Carr had been part of the cult since he was a teenager... The big issue with Wheat's claim that sets off alarm bells for me is that she seems to be in that "woe is me, everyone is conspiring against us" mindset. (The same sort of mindset that, for instance, Michael Aquino adopted to defend himself in the Presidio child molestation case.) Back around the early 2000s, a skeptical conspiracy author named Curt Rowlett was contacted by Wheat wherein she claimed Berkowitz had sent letters to the Carr family after his arrest claiming he would lie about others being involved in the murders. That seems a little too convenient especially because this purported smoking gun evidence has never seen the light of day. And if that's a lie (as it probably is), it seems Wheat just has a tendency to make up nefarious motives on the part of anyone who speaks out about her family.
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Post by Omega on Apr 24, 2021 19:24:41 GMT -6
Back around the early 2000s, a skeptical conspiracy author named Curt Rowlett was contacted by Wheat wherein she claimed Berkowitz had sent letters to the Carr family after his arrest claiming he would lie about others being involved in the murders.
Hey George! Hope all is well on your end
I don't know if something was to suppose to pop open on the above where it says "was contacted by Wheat" but I'm not seeing anything when I try to click on it? (may just be me! Take care!)
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Post by marionumber1 on Apr 24, 2021 19:38:09 GMT -6
Thanks, I'm doing well! Hope you are too. Do you mean that no page is opening or the page that opens is blank? If it's the latter, I probably should have said: the text on Rowlett's website is all white, the same color as the background. You should highlight the whole page (e.g. with Ctrl-A) and then you can read it. The former likely would be an issue on your end; if so, maybe try this archive link: archive.is/RkiBr
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Post by Omega on Apr 24, 2021 19:44:33 GMT -6
the text on Rowlett's website is all white, the same color as the background. You should highlight the whole page (e.g. with Ctrl-A) and then you can read it.
AHHHHH.....HA!!
THAT WORKED! THANKS!
Now, I am ready to learn the secret CAVDEF handshake and can maybe hum a chorus or two of it's anthem!
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ace
Full Member
Posts: 184
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Post by ace on Apr 24, 2021 21:49:45 GMT -6
Has she ever published these letters? A quick facebook post would torpedo Berkowitz, Terry, Denaro, and everyone else.
I'll be frank, I don't remember the names of everyone I went to high school with either. Even people I saw every day, kids I hung out with.
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Post by marionumber1 on Apr 24, 2021 21:54:47 GMT -6
I don't think she ever has, or if she has, she certainly has done a terrible job of publicizing it even though it would almost conclusively put all the allegations against her family to rest. And that is the main reason why I'm fairly sure Wheat was lying about those letters. Curt Rowlett unfortunately seems to have believed her without ever asking to see the letters for himself.
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Post by Omega on Apr 25, 2021 7:42:57 GMT -6
I think the following has been posted here in the past on these boards, but here is a Yonkers Facebook discussion from back in 2009 - 2012 where Wheat Carr joins the conversation.
Wheat starts appearing around page 6 (see upper right hand corner for page numbers) and her comments go on from there
Link:
I found it a few years back on the Son of Sam Conspiracy web site. It is a web site that is pretty much inactive today and used to have a forum/board to discuss things, but no longer. It's still out there and does have some interesting, original newspaper articles posted from back in the day when the "Sam" events were new. Actually, in the ID network video link I posted originally, there is a brief screen shot of the Son of Sam Conspiracy web page shown in that show.
I figured I re-post the Facebook discussion here again, to keep it one thread, while we are discussing Wheat Carr.
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ace
Full Member
Posts: 184
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Post by ace on Apr 25, 2021 8:11:58 GMT -6
I think the following has been posted here in the past on these boards, but here is a Yonkers Facebook discussion from back in 2009 - 2012 where Wheat Carr joins the conversation. Thanks, Omega!
Correct, sort of. Community car. I can't prove who drove what, but no the Carr's didn't own it.
I thought someone else shot the dog.
1. Mom would have had her own "business" line for tax purposes, no? Regardless, a business line would have been the answer. 2. Who the hell gives a second grader their own phone line for any reason?
Yes. Nicknames often have trivial origins.
Nobody ever said Michael was at every shooting. Technically she's not wrong about anything, but it all seems very greasy.
Okay, so? What is she trying to get at here?
This in and of itself does absolutely nothing to prove they were innocent bystanders. In fact, if she'd read The Ultimate Evil, she would see right there in print that Berkowitz hated John in particular and made absolutely no secret of it. I'd love to know the incident that set that grudge off. Surely she would know.
Are prisoners even allowed to send threatening letters? Don't they get screened? Not saying it's impossible, but several hundred?
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Post by mannygrossman on Apr 25, 2021 9:47:26 GMT -6
As I'm learning from doing my series, Maury knew a lot more and was involved more with these characters while in high school. It's possible Wheat may be right. Maury made it seem like he barely remembered John Carr, but the opposite is true. In my latest Wahlstrom vid I relate a story about how Maury saw "Scout" come pick up John Carr at Sacred Heart. YOu don't remember a story like that without knowing these characters a lot more than he let on. That part Manny, in "The Ultimate Evil", where Maury had to be reminded by his cousin that he knew John Carr in high school, never sounded right and I don't know why Maury would have wanted to include it in the story.
From "The Ultimate Evil":
"I then told Jim about a Christmas Day conversation I had with my cousin, Mary Ellen, whom I hadn't seen for several months. In describing what we were working on, I mentioned John Carr and said I knew very little about him. Mary Ellen chided my faulty memory. "You knew John Carr. He was in our freshman class in high school." "Are you serious?" "He was in another homeroom," she explained. "He was thin, had light, sandy-colored hair, and he was always cutting up. This was high school, and yet he was always throwing spitballs around and doing other antics that were more like a kid in grammar school would do. But he obviously thought it was all funny." As Mary Ellen spoke, I was starting to remember John Carr. "What else do you recall?" "Not much. He wore a red blazer a lot, and I can remember that he wanted to join the Piper's Band." With the mention of the Piper's Band, my mind switched to the Borrelli letter. The sentence, "Ugh, me hoot it 'urts, sonny boy," was written with a Scottish inflection and was a puzzle the police were unable to solve. They couldn't explain how Berkowitz, allegedly the letter's author, had come up with a Scottish phrase; or, more importantly, why he did. However, John Carr was interested in playing in a bagpipe band, complete with kilts, while a high school freshman in Yonkers. "Did he actually join it?" I asked. "I don't know if he did or not. But he liked the whole idea, and he may have tried out or gone to one of their meetings. Do you remember him now?" "I think so." When I pulled out an old yearbook later, I put the name and face together at once. I had indeed known John Carr for one year. But I hadn't seen or thought of him since we were freshmen, sixteen years before. My memories were vague."
Maury definitely was very intimate with these characters as early as 1961. He knew Scout's name and sordid reputation by then. And he was hearing stories of Witchcraft and Untermyer Park as early as 1960. I got this directly from Maury himself from a story he wrote on Facebook entitled "Death of a Teacher" which was the source material for my Wahlstrom video.
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Post by marionumber1 on Apr 25, 2021 14:44:50 GMT -6
Was that "Death of a Teacher" story posted in the official Ultimate Evil group on Facebook that Maury moderated before his death? I've tried to join it but my membership request has been stuck on pending for a while. That is very interesting that Maury had been hearing about a local cult since the 60s, and knew a lot more detail about some members of that crowd than he let on in his book. I'm just speculating wildly here, but is there not perhaps a possibility that Maury was even involved in some of the cult's activities back then? And could that explain the various unhelpful ways he has handled the story (many discussed in Carl Denaro's book): trying to maintain control of every investigation, keeping his supposed colleagues in the dark, and withholding real names whose release might have put pressure on these key case figures?
I am reminded of how John DeCamp's involvement with the Franklin scandal (an elite pedophile ring case in Omaha) went. In some ways, DeCamp wrote a fairly admirable piece of investigative work, exposing Franklin with a lot of solid connections between names, places, events, etc. Yet a number of important names and most of the case documentation he held onto was kept entirely to himself; following his death in 2017, I have no idea where these case files would have even gone. DeCamp also inserted various disinformational elements, such as a heavy focus on the more sordid "conspiracy"-type angles like Project Monarch, a glowing review of PI Roy Stephens when Stephens appears to have covered up the truth of what happened to missing 9-year-old girl Jill Cutshall, and some personal political vendettas involving Gov. Bob Kerrey and various militia movement causes. And somewhat paralleling Maury appearing to know more about the cult than he's said, I have found a lot of suspicious indicators in DeCamp's background which suggest that he himself could have been involved in pedophile ring activity. (Don't want to hijack another Son of Sam thread with Franklin material, but I can share this with anyone who is interested.)
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Post by mannygrossman on Apr 25, 2021 15:38:07 GMT -6
Was that "Death of a Teacher" story posted in the official Ultimate Evil group on Facebook that Maury moderated before his death? I've tried to join it but my membership request has been stuck on pending for a while. That is very interesting that Maury had been hearing about a local cult since the 60s, and knew a lot more detail about some members of that crowd than he let on in his book. I'm just speculating wildly here, but is there not perhaps a possibility that Maury was even involved in some of the cult's activities back then? And could that explain the various unhelpful ways he has handled the story (many discussed in Carl Denaro's book): trying to maintain control of every investigation, keeping his supposed colleagues in the dark, and withholding real names whose release might have put pressure on these key case figures? I am reminded of how John DeCamp's involvement with the Franklin scandal (an elite pedophile ring case in Omaha) went. In some ways, DeCamp wrote a fairly admirable piece of investigative work, exposing Franklin with a lot of solid connections between names, places, events, etc. Yet a number of important names and most of the case documentation he held onto was kept entirely to himself; following his death in 2017, I have no idea where these case files would have even gone. DeCamp also inserted various disinformational elements, such as a heavy focus on the more sordid "conspiracy"-type angles like Project Monarch, a glowing review of PI Roy Stephens when Stephens appears to have covered up the truth of what happened to missing 9-year-old girl Jill Cutshall, and some personal political vendettas involving Gov. Bob Kerrey and various militia movement causes. And somewhat paralleling Maury appearing to know more about the cult than he's said, I have found a lot of suspicious indicators in DeCamp's background which suggest that he himself could have been involved in pedophile ring activity. (Don't want to hijack another Son of Sam thread with Franklin material, but I can share this with anyone who is interested.) Yes, "Death of a Teacher" came from the official Facebook page. I got permission to read it and base my video on it.
As far as Maury goes, anything is possible I guess. But I doubt he was into the freakey deakey stuff at any time, but especially the early 60's. Read Carl's book for a much better insight into Maury's personality. I think ultimately he got his ego too caught up into the story and couldn't stand any one else scooping him.
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Jon
Junior Member
Posts: 72
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Post by Jon on Apr 25, 2021 16:40:03 GMT -6
I remember Curt Rowlett hanging around Tom Voigt's Zodiac forum a couple of decades ago. Occasionally the subject of the Sam cult would come up, and the consensus among the folks there was that Maury had just invented his story from whole cloth; they were so smug in their certainty that when Curt's interview with Wheat appeared, they took it as confirmation that there had been no violent cult in Yonkers. How Wheat Carr's word became the gold evidentiary standard is still a mystery to me.
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