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Post by Admin Horan on Dec 13, 2020 10:56:42 GMT -6
I already have proved that. And yes, this fits. IF it's "correct." But here's what I think is interesting--the talk about those "who are afraid of death" sounds like Manson. And one of the early iterations of their "solution" produced the word "coyote." Just like Manson. And, remember, Susan Atkins once said, "We are not afraid of the gas chamber, because it will just send us to the next life all that much sooner." It's also the cult the Death Angels ("Zebra Murders") belonged to.
IF "that wasn't me on the TV show begging for legal representation by Melvin Belli" then, who WROTE THE LETTER TO BELLI THAT CONTAINED THE PIECE OF STINE'S SHIRT? As I prove, the handprinting on that letter is totally different from the original "Zodiac" letters, but pretty much the same as on the cryptograms.
Funny how this "solution" caaaarrrreeeefully avoids disagreeing with my hoax theory. Very funny. Funny, because Oranchak has always had his nose three feet up Voigt's ass. They are going to claim that this solution "proves" Ross Sullivan was the Zodiac. But this "solution" (IF it's "correct") caaaarrrreeefully avoids trying to prove me "wrong." I wonder if Oranchak is keeping his options open.
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Post by moochops on Dec 13, 2020 11:43:55 GMT -6
Deep breaths Thomas. I’m a novice. I’ve read a lot about the case but I don’t have anything to say that hasn’t already been said. So I don’t generally comment. I do however think that if all the most knowledgeable people on this subject (yourself included), collaborated more (instead of inserting noses up asses) and didn’t just try and score points, then we’d probably be further advanced towards revealing who this prick actually was........ My 2c
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Post by sierra on Dec 13, 2020 12:06:38 GMT -6
I dont think Hal Snook was an expert criminologist, or whatever it is he claimed to be. I think he was a buffoon portraying/promoting himself has an expert; just like Sherwood Morrill. I am sure he got his investigation techniques from other sources like the FBI. He didn't come up with anything on his own.
The cipher was full of mistakes. I doubt the writer of that cipher deliberately jumbled the characters. The letter writer (Zodiac) wanted people to think he was smart. People who repeatedly try to convince others they are smart are usually not smart. In a sort of self fulfilling prophecy he proved he was a dumb person trying to look smart. Just like Snook. When you write a cipher/code you have to follow a set pattern, and the decrypter/decoder needs to know and follow the same pattern so they can read the message. If the recipient of the cipher has to find the mistakes and correct them, the message is useless.
T.H. Can you tell us about the "hash string encryption"?
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Post by Admin Horan on Dec 14, 2020 9:29:52 GMT -6
Moochops: That's because you don't know those assholes.
Sierra: Have you tried Google? For one thing, hash string encryption is how your passwords are encrypted. It's the basic encryption method used for almost everything today. Without the keystream, you're screwed. Even today. But I don't know if that'w what was used in the 340. If anything was used in the 340. For all we know, the number "340" was the number of the bus station locker where Paul Stine's wallet and keys were stashed.
You are right about the need to show how the ENCRYPTER did it, if you want to really claim your solution is the "correct" one. Another problem with claiming "solutions" of a homophonic, transposition cipher is that more than one mathematically "valid" solution will exist. Especially if you can't demonstrate the encryption process. For example, the 408 might easily say, "I LIKE KISSING PEOPLE BECAUSE IT IS SO MUCH FUN. IT IS MORE FUN THAN KISSING WILD GAME IN THE FOREST BECAUSE MAN IS THE MOST DANGEROUS ANIMAL OF ALL TO KISS." And so on. The 340 is even more complex, IF it contains any "message" at all. And Oranchak's "solution" involved a LOT of fudging to get the message he wants to see. And sure enough, in their own video, they show parts of other partial solutions they came up with. Like the one with "coyote" in it?
I'll say it again--I endorse his "solution" whole-heartedly because if proves me right--the letters were some kind of hoax. Or more to the point, it utterly fails to prove me wrong--and the 340 was the ONLY thing I could find that MIGHT prove me wrong.
And sure enough, in their own video, they show parts of other partial solutions they came up with. Like the one with "coyote" in it?
But I sure hope everybody believes they're right. No one will ever be able to claim the 340 proves me "wrong." Will they?
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Post by sierra on Dec 14, 2020 10:17:58 GMT -6
Sierra: Have you tried Google? For one thing, hash string encryption is how your passwords are encrypted. It's the basic encryption method used for almost everything today. Without the keystream, you're screwed. Even today. But I don't know if that'w what was used in the 340. If anything was used in the 340. For all we know, the number "340" was the number of the bus station locker where Paul Stine's wallet and keys were stashed. I did a search for "hash string encryption", but didn't find an exact match. I did see something about "hash encryption" (without the word "string") that is used with computer, but the info was so basic it didn't help me understand exactly how the Zodiac letter writer could have used that method.
The solution does add credence to your hoax theory.
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Post by Admin Horan on Dec 14, 2020 11:03:15 GMT -6
Pretty much the same thing. You need a "keystream" in order to decrypt such a message. It used to be done by hand (and not only was Hal Snook trained in it, but the textbook includes an example containing the string "MARCO") but of course, machines can do it faster. Encrypted teletype was the first all-electronic, fully automated encrypted messaging system. It used the old 5-bit Baudot code that replaced 3-bit Morse code and that was eventually replaced by 7-bit and 8-bit ASCII. Modern methods use 256-1024 bits, but the principle remains the same. The plain text is encrypted letter by letter by applying the logical operator NOR (the symbol for NOR is a circled plus sign or "crosshair") to the corresponding Baudot (or ASCII or whatever) binary equivalents of the plaintext letter and the corresponding letter of the key stream. The first letter of the plain text is NOR'ed with the first letter of the key stream to produce the first letter of the cryptext. And so on. To decrypt, you apply the same method to the cryptext--NOR'ing the letters of the cryptext with the same letters of the key stream produces the original plain text. Ingenious. And fully automated with basic logic circuits. Or, again, can be done by hand. "Put Marco back into the hell-hole from whence it came" is the perfect description for this process. FWIW, "Count Marco" was Navy communications/cryptography in WWII himself.
I suggest "Zodiac" may have used that to encrypt a message inside the 340, and left the Oranchak solution as "sawdust" to obscure the real message. The problem is, what was the keystream? And how did he convert all his wacky symbols into Baudot (ASCII was not yet in common use in 1969) binary code? Most of the symbols are Cebuano/Tagalog. There are no standard Baudot code equivalents. Do we apply the cipher key from the solved 408 to the 340 first, in order get the cryptext of the 340? If so, what do we use for a keystream? And some of the symbols in the 340 don't appear in the 408. See what I mean?
I argue it is more than "possible" that the 340 (and maybe even the 408) contain more deeply encrypted messages, and the "easy" solutions are just "sawdust." But that would mean that those messages must have been damned important to SOMEONE. And it must have been someone with whom direct communication was either impossible, or more likely, closely watched. For example, if you were a CIA agent, and you wanted to get a message to another CIA agent without the CIA being able to intercept your messages (or even know you were sending them) then this is one possible way to do it. And if your audience was SEVERAL widely scattered operatives, then a newspaper would be a good way. But you'd still need to cover your tracks, because the walls have eyes as well as ears.
That's a great big fat "if," I know, but I think I can prove that several such "deeply encoded" messages ARE in the 408. I will do so soon on the podcast. And looking at the scraps of information in Oranchak's video, I think the 340 contains many messages, as well.
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Post by sierra on Dec 14, 2020 11:29:48 GMT -6
So did the Zodiac take advantage of the murders to send a message, or did he commit the murders to send a message?
I doubt he committed the murders to send a message because he didn't send a message after the first murders on Lake Herman Road.
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Post by Admin Horan on Dec 15, 2020 6:01:41 GMT -6
What "Zodiac?" What message? Why bother writing the letters at all? "He" makes a lot of threats he never follows through on. That turns out to make sense, because "he" turns out to be a disgruntled deputy sheriff in Napa. So, what's HIS motive?
For one thing, he's got a chip on his shoulder because he never received his medals from his service in WWII. He never even made corporal. He went to San Jose State on the GI Bill, majoring in Journalism. But that's not enough (all by itself) to get a job at the Chronicle. He re-ups as a second lieutenant in the Air Force, but never makes first Lt, so they discharge him. He tries to revive a couple of small-town newspapers, but they failed for a reason, and he can't get then to pay the bills. So he ends up taking a job as radio dispatcher for Napa PD. Then he becomes a deputy sheriff, as a forensics expert. But he never makes Sergeant. He's what we academics call a "gifted underachiever."
So, why write these threatening letters, and why bother advertising an obscure warrior cult from the Philippines? What's the point? He mails each letter on the 25th anniversary date of some important event in his war service. For example, on November 8-9 1944, he and his unit were attacked by kamikazes. His CO put him in for a Purple Heart, but like thousands of WWII vets, he never actually receives his medals. He writes to the Pentagon to get them, but they claim they can't find the dispatches from his CO awarding him FOUR bronze stars and Purple Heart. And yet, there are the reports, right there in his DD-214. Again, this happened to thousands of veterans. So, 25 years to the day later, he gets his revenge by terrorizing SF with these oddball letters? What does he get out of it? An ego boost?
Then, after the November 8-9 bus bomb threat and 340, he "retires," and someone else starts mailing "Zodiac" letters to the Chronicle. Who? Why? The Belli letter is in the same handprinting as the cryptograms. Other letters are closer to, but distinct from, Hal's handprinting. That implies three people. But, and here is the interesting point, all three pieces of Paul Stine's bloody shirt came with all three different handprintings. So, there is no doubt that all three people were directly connected to each other. That's a conspiracy. Of who? To do what? What did THREE people get out of it? Graysmith, if he was one of the three (and he drops 2,000 hints in his "book" and other writings that he was) got his dream job--"investigative journalist." Who was the third person? Paul Avery? Keith Power? Were there more? What did THEY get out of it all?
I was hoping the 340 might contain some kind of "clew." But, according to these FBI-certified geniuses, it doesn't.
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Post by sierra on Dec 15, 2020 18:32:05 GMT -6
When I asked the question I was referring to your claim "...those messages must have been damned important to SOMEONE. And it must have been someone with whom direct communication was either impossible, or more likely, closely watched."
So if Hal Snook had to get an important message out to someone, did he just use the murders as a cover, or did he commit the murders just so he had an excuse to get his coded message to be seen all over the country?
I dont think he committed the murders, I think he was just bored, or angry, and wanted attention. That is why I wrote this above: "I dont think Hal Snook was an expert criminologist, or whatever it is he claimed to be. I think he was a buffoon portraying/promoting himself has an expert; just like Sherwood Morrill. I am sure he got his investigation techniques from other sources like the FBI. He didn't come up with anything on his own."
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Post by Admin Horan on Dec 16, 2020 9:04:52 GMT -6
And what I meant was, there was no need for the Author of the letters to commit any murders. Just convince Dear Editor that he did. The police weren't convinced. That that wasn't necessary, anyway. But so long as Dear Editor (of the Chronicle) played along, that was enough. The Editor of the Vallejo Times-Herald, by contrast, called the Feds. So, he never got any more letters.
So, why take the risk of committing any unnecessary murders? Are you with me? The Chronicle printed anything "he" asked. So, "he" didn't need to commit any murders. So, there is no reason to assume there ever was a "Zodiac." He didn't need to exist. And, by golly, all the actual evidence not only fails to suggest that "he" ever existed, it actually tends to rule out "his" existence. As a murderer.
Now, ""I don't think Hal Snook was an expert criminologist.." Well, it turns out, he WAS. He even taught forensics classes at Napa Junior College, and went all over the state teaching forensics. He had years of training, both civilian and military. He was an expert witness in a conviction upheld by the US Supreme Court.
But he never made Sergeant. THAT's funny.
In a couple of weeks, I will begin doing episodes about all the information (military records, etc) that we have found out about Snook (and other facets of the case) since I published my book.
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Post by moochops on Jan 31, 2021 13:50:45 GMT -6
Moochops: That's because you don't know those assholes. Sierra: Have you tried Google? For one thing, hash string encryption is how your passwords are encrypted. It's the basic encryption method used for almost everything today. Without the keystream, you're screwed. Even today. But I don't know if that'w what was used in the 340. If anything was used in the 340. For all we know, the number "340" was the number of the bus station locker where Paul Stine's wallet and keys were stashed. You are right about the need to show how the ENCRYPTER did it, if you want to really claim your solution is the "correct" one. Another problem with claiming "solutions" of a homophonic, transposition cipher is that more than one mathematically "valid" solution will exist. Especially if you can't demonstrate the encryption process. For example, the 408 might easily say, "I LIKE KI SSING PEOPLE BECAUSE IT IS SO MUCH FUN. IT IS MORE FUN THAN KI SSING WILD GAME IN THE FOREST BECAUSE MAN IS THE MOST DANGEROUS ANIMAL OF ALL TO KI SS." And so on. The 340 is even more complex, IF it contains any "message" at all. And Oranchak's "solution" involved a LOT of fudging to get the message he wants to see. And sure enough, in their own video, they show parts of other partial solutions they came up with. Like the one with "coyote" in it? I'll say it again--I endorse his "solution" whole-heartedly because if proves me right--the letters were some kind of hoax. Or more to the point, it utterly fails to prove me wrong--and the 340 was the ONLY thing I could find that MIGHT prove me wrong. And sure enough, in their own video, they show parts of other partial solutions they came up with. Like the one with "coyote" in it? But I sure hope everybody believes they're right. No one will ever be able to claim the 340 proves me "wrong." Will they? I don’t want to know those assholes 😁 What are your thoughts now that the dust has settled?
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Post by moochops on Jan 31, 2021 14:01:05 GMT -6
I’m going to read your book. Even though I don’t really want to.
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Post by moochops on Jan 31, 2021 14:19:09 GMT -6
Believe what? They don't actually show their work, only their "solution." With a very vague description of what sounds an awful lot like the "Bible code." Remember that one? It works on any text, if you run enough iterations. Which looks, from their own video, like pretty much what they did. Or some variation. They DO show a lot of fudging. A LOT of fudging. And Oranchak wildly exaggerates his knowledge of cryptanalysis. He doesn't even seem to know the difference between "code," "cipher," and "encryption." Of course, I'm not convinced that the 340 even contains a message. Anything to add to these thoughts now that you’ve had time to look at not only the decryption but also the proposed encryption method?
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Post by Admin Horan on Feb 1, 2021 6:43:34 GMT -6
Yes. I've been talking about it on the podcast.
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Post by justiceseeker on May 14, 2021 2:28:28 GMT -6
I already have proved that. And yes, this fits. IF it's "correct." But here's what I think is interesting--the talk about those "who are afraid of death" sounds like Manson. And one of the early iterations of their "solution" produced the word "coyote." Just like Manson. And, remember, Susan Atkins once said, "We are not afraid of the gas chamber, because it will just send us to the next life all that much sooner." It's also the cult the Death Angels ("Zebra Murders") belonged to. IF "that wasn't me on the TV show begging for legal representation by Melvin Belli" then, who WROTE THE LETTER TO BELLI THAT CONTAINED THE PIECE OF STINE'S SHIRT? As I prove, the handprinting on that letter is totally different from the original "Zodiac" letters, but pretty much the same as on the cryptograms.Funny how this "solution" caaaarrrreeeefully avoids disagreeing with my hoax theory. Very funny. Funny, because Oranchak has always had his nose three feet up Voigt's ass. They are going to claim that this solution "proves" Ross Sullivan was the Zodiac. But this "solution" (IF it's "correct") caaaarrrreeefully avoids trying to prove me "wrong." I wonder if Oranchak is keeping his options open. This solution, while repetitive and boring, is light years better than that idiotic solution that was presented by Craig Whatshisname on The Hunt for the Zodiac Killer...you know the one, where he claimed to "put himself in the right psychological frame of mind" before attempting a solution, which translates to "I smoked a huge, I mean HUUUUGGGGEEEE bowl of the best shit I could find, with a PCP cherry on top...dude, I got WET!" That one was laughably bad...not as bad as Graysmith's solution, but still...pretty damn bad. As to who wrote the letter to Belli...Kjell Qvale, perhaps?
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