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Post by anyhoo on Oct 1, 2020 20:30:27 GMT -6
Unfortunately I cannot see the post on WebSleuths because I have been permanently banned by Tricia the administrator of that site for expressing opinions that Tricia has long been against. I do not want to get into that though. I believe that Patsy has been a victim of Monarch mind control just as I believe that JonBenet was a victim of Monarch mind control. I created a post about this on my Blog. strangerinajewishworld.blogspot.com/2020/08/programming-and-jbr-murder-i-feel.html
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Post by marionumber1 on Oct 2, 2020 10:36:32 GMT -6
I don't have any specific knowledge of the church, but like you, I developed a suspicion that it was some kind of meeting ground for a pedophile group/cult after researching the case for a while. My suspicion was that the decision to call in the Whites, the Fernies, Father Rol Holverstock, and Dr. Francis Beuf to the Ramsey home that morning was to pollute the crime scene, allowing for any forensic evidence of their presence (likely from the staging done that night into the early morning) to be explained. There are signs that all of them were acting in lockstep, like Linda Arndt's observation that none of them cared about the 10 AM deadline passing with no phone call, and Dr. Beuf, who appears to have covered up JonBenet's long-term sexual abuse, supplying Patsy (not a patient of his!) painkillers. So to find out that every one of them other than the Whites was part of the same church in Boulder certainly raised red flags. One old Justice Watch post from 2000 even speculated along these lines:
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Post by anyhoo on Oct 2, 2020 12:56:54 GMT -6
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Post by anyhoo on Oct 2, 2020 14:00:12 GMT -6
I don't have any specific knowledge of the church, but like you, I developed a suspicion that it was some kind of meeting ground for a pedophile group/cult after researching the case for a while. My suspicion was that the decision to call in the Whites, the Fernies, Father Rol Holverstock, and Dr. Francis Beuf to the Ramsey home that morning was to pollute the crime scene, allowing for any forensic evidence of their presence (likely from the staging done that night into the early morning) to be explained. There are signs that all of them were acting in lockstep, like Linda Arndt's observation that none of them cared about the 10 AM deadline passing with no phone call, and Dr. Beuf, who appears to have covered up JonBenet's long-term sexual abuse, supplying Patsy (not a patient of his!) painkillers. So to find out that every one of them other than the Whites was part of the same church in Boulder certainly raised red flags. One old Justice Watch post from 2000 even speculated along these lines: IMO the Whites, the Fernies, Rolland Hoverstock, Dr. Beuf and others did not have to be called over to the house on the morning of 12-26-1996. I contend that they were there much earlier, like around 2 to 3 AM helping John and Patsy to stage a fake crime scene at their house to hide the truth about where JBR actually met her death. IMO they were not there to pollute the crime scene, which was in a completely different location that they had all come from but they were there to stage a false crime scene and also to help support Patsy who was very upset about her daughter's death (much more so than John was). I question Linda Arndt's honesty and integrity for a variety of reasons. I have heard about this Tal Jones name before but I did not give it any significance. Do you know anything about Tal Jones?
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Post by marionumber1 on Oct 2, 2020 15:24:31 GMT -6
I guess "crime scene" isn't the right word for it, perhaps "cover-up scene" is better. Like you, I think they were there in the early morning helping stage a crime scene at the Ramsey home, to make everyone believe that she had been killed there when it actually happened elsewhere. Then they either left and were called right back in keeping with the cover story, or perhaps they never really left at all. In any case, I do think that part of their reason for the Whites, Fernies, Fr. Holverstock, and Dr. Beuf wanting to be there into the late morning/early afternoon before JonBenet was found is that they wanted to have an explanation if any forensic evidence linking them to the staged crime scene turned up. There could have been other reasons too, like handling Patsy.
We definitely do have different thoughts on Linda Arndt. I'm curious, what makes you think she wasn't honest? Personally I feel like she was one of the few cops in the Boulder PD who was honest, which is why her reputation was destroyed the most out of anyone there. She had what I thought was a good instinct about John Ramsey, and also extended her suspicion to everyone else in the house when she noted that no one but her seemed to care about 10 AM passing with no phone call. Plus, she even reported fearing that her life was in danger from high-level officers in the BPD like John Eller and Tom Koby, which is very telling. I think she was hung out to dry that morning by the department and made to handle a "crime scene" entirely on her own with tons of people milling about, despite repeatedly calling for backup.
Tal Jones is a very interesting character in all of this. He is the son of OSS and Army intelligence officer Albert Hedding Sprague who ended up remarrying to Alyce Christoff (Nancy Krebs's mother), making Tal Nancy's step-uncle. Tal, who was living in Boulder, got involved in the Ramsey case from the very beginning, joining the online forums to post primarily Burke-did-it theories as "Spade". Per one account, Tal was working as a paralegal in the Boulder law office of Thomas Cecil "Doc" Miller (then-boyfriend of Ramsey family friend Judith Phillips), and came into the office the day after JonBenet's murder to announce that Fleet White had told him Burke killed JonBenet. Likely due to his association with Miller, Tal boasted of being "well conected to the darker side of Boulder's political/judical network", which apparently involved "drugs and blackmail". Tal even bragged about having Tom Haney, a former Denver cop who was assisting the Boulder police, as an inside source. When Nancy Krebs was considering coming forward, Tal was one of the people who approached her and tried getting her not to. His subsequent attacks on Nancy and continued pushing of RDI (largely BDI) narratives online made many people see him as Fleet White's henchman of sorts. Reportedly, Alyce even said at one point that she wouldn't be surprised if Tal (her stepson) was involved in murdering JonBenet.
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Post by james1983 on Oct 2, 2020 21:28:04 GMT -6
The occult and the Episcopal church has been going on for a long time. The cathedral of St. John the divine in New York is covered in occult symbolism. It's where the occult establishment in NY use to go, in fact when the church wasn't holding "Christian" events they held meetings and such for the theosophical society in the basement of the church. It's a branch of the Anglican Church which at one time in the late 19th century had close to 50% of their bishops or priests involved in the occult. Me and professor were discussing this on another thread while back. The wealthy elite of the east coast were mainly episcopalians. Read the book called "the power of their glory". It's free on archive.org.
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Post by Admin Horan on Oct 3, 2020 18:46:55 GMT -6
It's super-duper simple-dimple--WTF are JonBenet's own panties? 1. They were removed from the scene of the crime (supposedly the Ramsey home.) WTF for? Only ONE possible reason--incriminating evidence, like semen. Period. IF they were removed from the Ramsey house. 2. They were LEFT at the ACTUAL scene of the crime. According to both Ramseys and the Whites, JonBenet had been at the White's Christmas party that evening, and returned home with her parents after they all dropped off some other kids at their homes. But Fleet White is the last adult person outside the family to report seeing JBR alive. He said that was in the White home as the Ramseys left the party. And John is the one who reported last seing JBR alive at all. When the last person to see the victim alive is ALSO the person who discovers--and MOVES--the body, you've got a suspect. Period. And when the TWO last people are the TWO who find the body, I don't see any mystery.
The pair that JonBenet was wearing when John produced her body and delivered it to police upstairs were from a previously unopened pack bought as a Christmas present for Patsy's 12-year-old niece. No stranger could have possibly known about the existence of those panties, even if he knew he needed to look for substitute panties. So, they were put on JonBenet by "someone" who knew they existed, and where they were. But that does NOT explain where JONBENET's panties went. At all.
IF the Ramsey's and White's are telling the truth, then JonBenet's panties were removed either at the Ramsey's, or at the White's, but she must have been killed at the Ramsey's, some other place, or BACK at the White's, and the only one that makes ANY sense is back at the Ramsey's. And that's if they're telling the truth. BPD pretty much believed the Whites were telling the truth, and that the Ramseys were not. Patsy told police a really, really stupid lie about the panties. In addition to other stupid lies. And John ALONG WITH Fleet White Jr removed JBR from the scene of the crime, which was supposedly in the "wine cellar." If John put the panties on JBR, then Fleet witnessed or helped.
I really don't see any kind of "mystery" here. (I know the BPD declared that the DNA "exonerated" the Ramsey's, but that seems to have been exaggerated, at best. Very common with DNA "evidence.") Except, of course, for the mystery of JBR's missing panties. One of Patsy's "theories" was that JBR had had yet another accident, and had gotten rid of her own panties, and cleverly swapped them for a clean pair from the package she knew her mother had bought for her cousin. Except that Patsy told police that JBR got them from the drawer in the bathroom. Which is impossible.
And it doesn't explain where her "soiled" pair went.
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Post by james1983 on Oct 3, 2020 19:13:35 GMT -6
That alone should have made them the number 1 suspects in my eyes. There was obviously more going on here than was reported. I always thought Mr. Ramsey removing his daughter from the cellar wasn't something an average person would do. He had to have known that doing so would contaminate the crime scene.
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Post by Admin Horan on Oct 3, 2020 20:49:49 GMT -6
I had to drastically re-edit my post above. Again. Anyway, the point is, the trace DNA that supposedly did "not" come from semen (although so little trace remained, that may not be conclusive, either) came from at least two men. John and Fleet are two men, who are the same two men who last saw...and found...
And Fleet White 1. Was allowed to search the basement by himself, at 6:15ish 2. He and Fernie are allowed to leave with Burke without being searched by police. That's the only time those panties could have left that house. In White's or Fernie's pockets. And White was in the basement ALONE before he left with Burke. So it ain't Fernie. And if JBR's panties had been removed from the house prior to 6:00 am there was no reason for Fleet to search the basement. Alone or otherwise.
And, of course, the Ramseys eventually turned on Fleet White. But they were ALL in that (particularly) sick kiddie pageant world.
I don't see any mystery. Of course, I could be wrong.
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Post by marionumber1 on Oct 3, 2020 21:07:24 GMT -6
It seems likely to me that the whole drama of John Ramsey and Fleet White turning on each other was to save their own asses after they were put under the spotlight. Fleet probably figured he could deflect the attention away from himself by making it look like the Ramseys (particularly Burke) were the sole culprits, covertly using henchmen of his like Tal Jones and (I suspect) Thomas Cecil "Doc" Miller to push these narratives while assailing the Boulder DA's office for a cover-up protecting the Ramseys. John conversely has hinted at the guilt of every one of his former friends, especially Fleet, while acting as if the Boulder police have been conspiring against him and his family. Or maybe it was even largely for show. Looking at their actions in tandem, it feels like John and Fleet were pushing equal and opposite narratives of the case, designed to force observers of the case to choose between two false narratives: only one of the Ramseys did it (RDI) and everyone else is totally innocent, or an intruder did it (IDI) and the Ramseys are totally innocent. Maybe there were fueling an intentional false dichotomy and laughing it up behind the scenes. You also have some weird actions where both sides appear to defend each other even after their apparent split. John denied under oath in the deposition for the Stephen Miles case that any altercation happened with Fleet in Atlanta despite multiple witnesses and his own words in his book he later published. Fleet and his wife initially backed Mary Keenan as the new Boulder DA, even though Keenan was involved in an incident of the DA's office trying to gain unauthorized access to "war room" police files, and their supposed ally at the Boulder PD Steve Thomas thoroughly despised Keenan as corrupt. Nancy Krebs's lawyer Lee Hill opined that "the break down of communicaiton between the families was just superfuge" and "Much of the secaration was for show; just an apparent separation". He also expressed a belief that the Ramseys and Whites knew each other long before their official first meeting in Boulder in 1994, which I believe to be the case.
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Post by Admin Horan on Oct 4, 2020 5:23:12 GMT -6
BPD have publicly "exonerated" the Whites THREE TIMES. You only have to exonerate suspects. Not "witnesses." And the shielding of suspects in this case was done by higher UPs, not police or even coroner's office. Just higher ups. They even bent over backwards to make sure the most recent DNA "tests" exonerated the Ramseys and the Whites. A grand jury indicted both parents, but the DA effectively quashed the indictment. And they were the ones who put on the case for the grand jury.
One ME was 100 percent certain JBR had been raped (whether by object like a paintbrush handle, or human fingers, or SOMETHING) not only at the time of her death, but probably on prior occasions as well. Another ME bent over backwards to disagree. What for? What good would that do the VICTIM?
Every minute that went by, the Ramseys cooperated less and less. And that's by far the most generous thing you can say about them.
And there's one (snicker) more thing: For 25 years, there has been all this argument over how the "intruder(s) got IN the house." But, how did they get OUT?
Brief rundown on Fleet Russell White, III: US Naval Academy. London School of Economics (a BIG hairy deal, BTW) American University Law School. Senate Liaison US Navy; Senate liaison US Secretary of the Navy. His father's sister, Lani White, is--gasp!--a real estate broker in--gasp!--Aspen, CO.
No information available for John Ramsey's buddy Fleet R White II. Funny, that. But apparently, his full name is technically Russell Fleet White II, not Fleet Russell. What's the diff? Probably to distinguish himself from his father, Russell Fleet White, Sr.
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Post by anyhoo on Oct 4, 2020 17:14:51 GMT -6
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Post by Admin Horan on Oct 4, 2020 19:55:30 GMT -6
I wouldn't go betting any farms on the Krebs stuff. First and foremost, there is NOTHING about this case that requires looking for any "outsider" suspects. NOTHING rules out John, Patsy, and Fleet being responsible for the whole thing.
"Might" there be other possible suspects? Sure. The Easter Bunny "might" be a suspect. But there is no need for another suspect. ALL the actual evidence points directly at the Ramseys (with Fleet as an accomplice.) And even if it IS "possible" that JonBenet's original panites were removed at the scene of some crime OUTSIDE the Ramsey house, and left behind when JonBenet's body was carried back to her own house, that still doesn't require the presence of any "sex party."
Now, were the Ramseys and Whites involved in some kind of kiddie porn ring? We KNOW that. There have been convictions. We've seen the photos, for God's sake. But that doesn't mean we need to put any faith in any specific story poor Nancy Krebs told.
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Post by marionumber1 on Oct 4, 2020 22:00:38 GMT -6
You're right that we don't need to depend on Nancy Krebs's story. I just think it is important in that it is the first and so far only case of a victim directly accusing the Whites and Ramseys of sexual abuse, and provides valuable behind-the-scenes context of how this ring operated (John as the money man, Fleet Sr. as the apparent ringleader, the connections to Hollywood figures like Goldie Hawn and Aspen high society like W.T. Ray, etc.). Who might have been involved in any specific events that night is unclear, but I am confident placing John Ramsey and Fleet White Jr. in the thick of it at the very minimum.
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Post by Admin Horan on Oct 5, 2020 6:06:15 GMT -6
Oooooooohhhh, I suggest that poor Nancy's allegations are worth looking into. And will BE looked into. Relentlessly. But prima fascie, they should NOT be relied upon as any kind of evidence in and of themselves. Remember, the people we're after engage in relentless DISinformation in order to discredit their critics.
But truth will out.
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