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Post by jmo on Feb 4, 2020 23:40:04 GMT -6
MOTIVE
Are there people that kill without motive? Yes.
Were these people killed without motive? Hmmm.
If they weren't killed with "motive" so be it. Might never know nuthin.
But, if they were killed with "motive", what was it?
Dmac's theory is that Marty killed Sue because he was seeing her and was jealous of Marilyn. Which makes no sense at all.
So, I can/am willing to move on from that.
So, maybe it was a random killing. Maybe it was.
But, because there is nothing to go on with the random theory, here we are.
Sometimes I stress on different people, not believing in the whole randomness of it all. And, that's all we got people. Either it's random. Or, it's not.
NOT being a random crime, I would question...
Sheila.
Tina.
Richard.
Sue.
And, Johnny and Dana.
Nothing else makes sense.
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Post by kmik on Feb 5, 2020 14:52:12 GMT -6
I have no problem with Dmac clinging to the Marty theory - my problem is his inability to allow other people to discuss anything that can't be linked to Marty Smartt. The basis for his claim can easily be argued (love letter, what he said in interview, alleged "confession", what people told years after the murders). Marty may very well be guilty but certainly not based on that.
LE shouldn't be blamed or accused of a "coverup" because they were not able to untangle the LIES told by PON or random theories or "visions" people seemed to have. This case was a cluster from the beginning and it had NOTHING to do with LE. The DOJ coming in is not the least bit questionable given the area this crime happened in AND the fact that I've watched many non drug related cases with the DOJ assisting. Doug Thomas had the GOOD SENSE to call in somebody who might possibly be able to do more than the PCSO and his decision has been questioned since- NOT 1981- but since the documentaries and no doubt his decision would have been questioned if he had NOT asked for outside assistance - so a catch 22.
Mike can't cry about this case being a "soup sandwich" because of inept LE - it was a "soup sandwich" because of lies and omissions not sloppy police work - after all he hasn't been able to solve it either after 6 years on the case. And not because the case files were stolen, or disorganized but because of tunnel vision and too many pieces that don't fit.
I know I speak for many when I say we have combed over ALL the people on the PON list - I know them better than a lot of my own family - this case was about more PON's than Marty Smartt and with good reason. Marty was a suspect at the time because of Marilyn and only Marilyn.
After 39 years I would have to ask Ricky Sharp why he chooses not to talk about the case. |
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Post by jmo on Feb 15, 2020 1:52:17 GMT -6
Agreed. I have a few "top people" but my list doesn't include Marty. No disrespect to anyone who wants to hang Marty. Dmac can do Dmac.
I keep thinking of certain groups of people. Walkes. Thompson. Howard. Alveys.
I've read through a lot of things and some people really seem to think Sue brought this all on.
You two are my "go to" so I'm wondering--do you feel it was more Sue -- or Dana and Johnny -- or Sheila -- or something more random?
I value your opinions and the research you've done.
Keep rowing. Maybe we'll all get there. :-)
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Post by kmik on Feb 15, 2020 19:54:21 GMT -6
Gosh JMO I think they all had things going on in their lives that made each of them a good target and I change my mind a lot since we don't have all of the info. But I don't feel (at this moment) that Sue was the intended target. I can see Tina being involved in someway (and I could really be far off ) but to me Sue was beaten and gagged because she walked in and panicked when she saw what was happening in the living room causing the killer to do whatever it took to shut her up. My mind changes frequently about who could have killed them but not about that. What do you think JMO??
I agree let's keep on rowing!! |
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kay
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Post by kay on Feb 15, 2020 21:23:04 GMT -6
This is why I am trying to find out everything about everything that happened in the victims lives prior to the murders.
Unfortunately, every single one of them were good targets.
Sue being in an abusive marriage
Tina being molested, MULTIPLE times
Johnny turning into a handful, even where Sheila has said that is why they moved to Keddie. Because their mom was having a hard time to control him.
Dana being from a family of supposed drug addicts and heading down a wrong path.
Then I look at the matter of how everyone was killed (excluding Tina because we don’t know much so pay more attention to why she was abducted).
Dana seemed to have been beaten the worst especially in the face. Johnny was stabbed in the throat. Sue was tied up and clearly walked through the crime scene and was kept alive the longest (right?). Everyone died in a different way. That has to mean something
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Post by kmik on Feb 16, 2020 7:20:49 GMT -6
You are right so many motives.
Sue was in the process of divorce and dating other men.
Tina had been molested by Daniel French but if you read the report she clearly knew what to do to get the ice cream money even taking the change back to him when she and the other little girl got home (French went along with them for the ice cream then to his house) plus a week later when the police called the Sharp house Tina wasn't there she was once again down the road at the little girls house - seemingly no concern that the guy who supposedly molested her lived in that same trailer park. She was street smart just like Joel Lipsey said and he knew. She may have been shy at school but no doubt people in Keddie knew her. Steve L (one of the top suspects in 1986 and dorm student at the time) claimed she talked to him about some man following Sheila. Why would Tina just out of the blue have a conversation with him about her sister??? Certainly didn't happen while she waited in line at the Keddie Store. William Avery said at 7:00pm on the night of the murders Tina came to his house to pick up Greg who had been playing with his son no mention of anyone walking with her at 7:00pm on a Saturday night in that little cesspool - but she obviously was no stranger to rambling around.
Johnny was out of Sue's control according to Nancy Davis. Uncle Don may have found it hard to tell the truth about him but Nancy didn't. He had a week old black eye at the time of the murders and had ran away from home about a month before the murders - and was free to roam around Quincy all day Saturday into the night - and had probably been roaming since the night before when he stayed at the Meeks house. There was just no supervision
Dana was troubled and living in the receiving home. Don and Pat Dorris seem to have been good honest people but they had kids of their own while taking in troubled kids and the FRB had a couple of articles about the neighbors complaining the kids were not being watched carefully. These kids were coming and going there just like they were at their own troubled homes. Dana, according to his own father, was about to be moved to a more "secure" home. He just seemed to have few boundaries, just like Johnny and Tina. Not to mention that a girl in Quincy had a baby by him a short time before the murder (not sure if he knew it or saw the child).
They had problems that made for good motives but I don't believe 4 different people came into the cabin and killed them individually. And I don't believe 3-6 people were in the cabin or even in Keddie watching out or involved in the murders. These people, like myself, were not that important. |
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kay
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Post by kay on Feb 16, 2020 12:19:04 GMT -6
Also, not to be the devils advocate, but it seems that being unsupervised and running around doing whatever was the case for most kids in Quincy/Keddie. No doubt with the drug problem going on around that time and the amount of pedos that these 3 kids were definitely just the small amount of trouble happening in the area.
The only problem with finding a motive for any of these people is most of it involves rumors.
Sue was supposedly a prostitute (I don’t think I believe that), supposedly screwing Marty, supposedly dating multiple men, supposedly dealing drugs. A lot of it seems like he said she said.
I haven’t heard many rumors about Johnny other than he was dealing drugs at school, and I’m not too sure how credible this is. I’d like to know who the black eye was from and who he spent most of his time with besides the Meeks (not that we could find out much about the black eye now).
Tina was ‘supposedly’ pregnant by Marty. I don’t know how credible it is seeing the source was Kathy Beckley, and in an interview I’ve seen Sheila stated that to her knowledge Tina hadn’t even started her cycle yet. Not that she couldn’t have.
Dana was supposedly on drugs or drinking all the time and constantly partying. This is the one I find least believable. The kid was a diabetic. Doing majority of that stuff, especially more then once, would have killed him. Don dorris had said that when Dana lived at the foster home he only had one diabetic episode and took very good care of
Himself and his condition. He’s doing to throw all that away to get drunk? I’m not so sure.
How are we suppose to find a motive against at least one of these victims if everything that comes out of people’s mouth is absolute crap lol
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Post by kmik on Feb 16, 2020 13:48:22 GMT -6
I wouldn't have a hard time believing Sue slept with men for money some of the men she was seeing were still married. Her seeing Marty has only been told by supposedly one person - xxxx bartender - we've never even heard of that being a rumor.
I'm no doctor so somebody please help me here but I don't think it would have been impossible for Tina to have been pregnant regardless of if she had or had not started her period. Her being pregnant was probably a rumor very early on but the suggestion of Marty being the father came after Marilyn started to accuse Marty of being involved.
I think the police know who gave Johnny a black eye but we don't. Timothy Grant said Johnny and Tim Lampe stole a lid of marijuana from his house in July and December of 1980. The report on the victim's background said he had been know to use marijuana but not known how frequently. Johnny's Aunt Nancy said he was on drugs, out of control and Sue needed help with him.
Dana was a diabetic but Karis and I had a lady who worked for us for 15 years who drank every weekend and smoked pot as often as she could and she was a "bad diabetic" so I don't know if that would have scared a young boy enough to stay away from it.
Kay you are right most of the kids were roaming free all over the neighborhood without a parent knowing where they were and my mom also didn't know where I was 24/7 but neither me, Karis or our brother were out roaming around in our very safe neighborhood - not gonna happened not at my house nor either of our grandparents house- we could stay outside all day ON OUR PROPERTY - but roaming the neighborhood was not okay - and this was the '80's. These very young kids were let hitchhike and roam at will and Keddie was a cesspool there is just no other way to put it. Probably very fun memories for the people who were kids back then but very naive as to what they were living in at the time.
So for motive who knows it's just too crazy. Like JMO said just keep rowing |
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Post by snoho17 on Feb 16, 2020 17:01:02 GMT -6
I don't think sue was hooking,but I think she might have been husband shopping. I think that was a common thing for divorcees, especially when housewife was the only occupation she'd ever had. Apparently Tina had been excited by the idea of Sue remarrying.
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kay
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Post by kay on Feb 16, 2020 21:13:13 GMT -6
Snoho I agree 100000%. And honestly, who cares if she was dating a lot. I feel like people make a much bigger deal out of sues dating life than it needs. Don’t get me wrong it needs to be looked into for suspect reasons, but the people who call her a whore and say she was a hooker or she was out of control with men, I think that’s a bit much.
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Post by kmik on Feb 16, 2020 21:36:03 GMT -6
I didn’t say she was I said it would not surprise me. She had just stayed at Dareyl’s house until 2:00 in the morning a couple of nights before the murders - leaving a bunch of out of control kids at home unsupervised on a school night.
I don't think I have ever read that she was out of control in her dating life but she definitely dated. The truth is people seem to become saints when they die (especially the way they died) and nobody wants to say one negative word about the victim - the same thing that I think happened in 1981 with the Sharps family - what they felt they couldn't do for them in life they tried to do for them in death which didn't help the investigation at all. |
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Post by karis on Feb 17, 2020 10:08:54 GMT -6
Sue, Tina, Johnny, Dana. Someone had motive enough that night kill 4 people. I can't imagine a stranger not familiar with small community coming in off the highway and picking that cabin. It was too close to the Seabolts.
In death everyone becomes a saint. And, according to the statements and reports, these were troubled people. That doesn't mean they deserved to die but the truth is what it is. Something brought about these murders.
Sue WAS dating several men. It is reported that she was staying out to the early morning hours with at least 2 of these men (Joe and Daryl). She was cooking them supper and it is not recorded that she brought her kids along for that outing. Who was feeding them? Sheila, Tina and Johnny could feed themselves, but what about Ricky and Greg? OMG if you did that today, someone would call DHR on you! You can say that was the 80's but "someone" was talking about her.
Tina. Her teacher said she was struggling in school and didn't get the help she needed at home. What she was saying was that she needed her mother to help her with her studies. She never gets bashed or called a lier for telling what she knew was the truth. She was a victim of abuse. Where was she at when the police called Sue to talk to her? She was roaming around the trailer park, the very place where she had been abused. Why was a twelve year old girl was so important that older girls (Kathy Beckley, Karen A. Penny W. ect) were spreading "rumors" about her after she died. Why?
Johnny was into petty theft. There is no way to pretty that up. He was involved in theft two different times. He was giving Sue a lot of trouble according to her sister in law. I believe her. She would have gotten this information from Sue. He had run away from home. OMG he was only 15!
Dana was living in a home for troubled children. According to the FRB he had run way from home at 13. They had to send the search and rescue to find him. He was found early in the am. Guess what, he didn't take that diabetic kit with him.(I will find that article and post it) He was slashing tires and according to his father "just before he died he had gotten into some more trouble. He was working at the annex, or was it the fairgrounds? Anyway he had stolen some money and he was going to another foster home." That happened right before the murders.
Don't get me wrong my sympathy is with the victims. They were probably good people that made bad choices. But there lifestyles have to be question as to motive.
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kay
Junior Member
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Post by kay on Feb 17, 2020 12:33:43 GMT -6
10000% everyone had their demons they were dealing with.
One thing that clicked when I was rewatching the documentaries was listening to Sheilas interview with investigators she is asked if Johnny had any enemies she said
“I don’t know. I don’t think he had any men enemies. Dana could have but I don’t know about Johnny”.
Okay so what kind of enemies did he have? Boys? Females? She puts a lot of emphasis on the word men. Who was Johnny hanging around with that would have had a grudge on hmm? The people he stole weed from on two separate occasions? Correct me if I’m wrong, but that happened both times a few months before the murders (that we know of, of course).
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Post by snoho17 on Feb 17, 2020 16:35:29 GMT -6
Oh I'm not claiming sue was a saint. But I don't think everything has to be all or nothing. Sue dated, did she sleep with every man she went out with? Daryl is the only one I'd put money on. Sue was also a teetotaler according to some, an alcoholic according to others. I'd bet she was neither. I don't think sue had any real world work experience, I can see her thinking there'd be one way to improve her circumstances, and that would take her landing a man.
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Post by kmik on Feb 17, 2020 17:13:22 GMT -6
I don't know Joe Baze asked her to marry him after the first date but she didn't except.
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