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Post by Admin Horan on Feb 4, 2020 6:56:03 GMT -6
Sam Carr was the father of John, Michael, and Wheat Carr. The Son of Sam implied that he was the son of Sam Carr. Who was Sam Carr? And what did he have to do with the .44 Caliber Murders?
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Post by Omega on Feb 4, 2020 10:03:32 GMT -6
I first read "The Ultimate Evil" right after the Robert Stack TV show "Unsolved Mysteries" first aired their "Son of Sam" episodes back in 1988. "The Ultimate Evil" was out for around a year plus at that point.
Coming away from those two sources, I was totally convinced that the Carrs were definitely involved with the SOS shootings. That was 1988 and carried forward for decades later.
Now, in 2020, I am less convinced of the Carrs involvement than at any point in the past.
Looking back at this now, and with plenty of time and hindsight, I find what transpired in the first couple of weeks in June 1977 interesting, as to drawing a direct connection to Yonkers and Berkowitz. This is a full two months before his arrest and before the final two shootings (Elephas Bayside/Moskowitz-Violante Brooklyn) happened.
Here's a timeline for that week in June 1977:
Sunday June 5th, 1977 - Jimmy Breslin writes his column and alerts the world to the text of the Son of Sam letter he (Breslin) at the NY Daily News received. The actual Son of Sam letter is not published in NY Daily News in this edition. Purposely left out, per NY Detective requests, is the part of the SOS letter at that end that mentions "John Wheaties", the "Wicked King Wicker", the "Duke of Death" parts.
Monday June 6th, 1977 - Next day after Breslin's column, the NY Daily News is allowed to print these parts and notes the detectives requests to leave out.
Tuesday June 7th, 1977 - Per Maury in "The Ultimate Evil" - Craig Glassman receives the first (of four) threatening letters
Thursday June 9th, 1977 - Per Maury in "T.U.E." - Jack Cassara receives the get well card from supposedly Sam (and Frances) Carr. Cassara looks up Sam Carr in the phone directory and both are puzzled by this. Sam Carr has also received anonymous threatening letters at this point. The men agree to meet at the Carr house on this Thursday 6/9 to discuss further. They compare handwriting samples from each piece and it is a match. There is a common link, but they can't immediate place. Nann Cassara (Jack's wife), when she gets back to her home after meeting the Carrs, recalls Sam Carr mentioning his dog shot and recalls her former tenant (Berkowitz) had issues with dogs barking. She thinks of the connection, looks up Berkowitz in the current directory and sees he is living near Carr. She immediately contacts Sam Carr on this.
Friday June 10th, 1977 - Per "T.U.E" - Sam Carr goes down to the Yonkers Police Department to make them aware of this info. Supposedly, based on the the call that NY detectives had with Wheat Carr, when they were trying to track down "witness" David Berkowitz, Sam Carr was also down at the Omega Task Force (109th precinct in Queens) in early August right before the Berkowitz arrest.
What is truly amazing, is this all transpires a full two months and four people shot, before Berkowitz is investigated/arrested.
Those parts of the Breslin letter ("John Wheaties", "Wicked King Wicker", "Son of Sam") would have seemed like gibberish to the average professional and amateur sleuths following the case back in the day. But, to people in Yonkers, this had to be very familiar.
The Carrs were well known in Yonkers. Sam ran businesses and employed many local people. Why would there be so many direct links trying to draw a straight line to Sam Carr? Seems unusual to do, if involved.
The jury may still be out on John and Michael's involvement in all this, but for Sam Carr, it seems he is very much a victim here.
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Post by Admin Horan on Feb 5, 2020 10:11:15 GMT -6
Good post! So, in a nutshell, what we're looking for is some kind of corroborating evidence linking Sam Carr to Berkowitz. For example,
1. IF David Berkowitz wrote the "Borelli letter" and the "Breslin letter," then why is he claiming to be the "Son of Sam?" His father wasn't named Sam. John and Michael Carr's father was named Sam. Why would Berkowitz claim to be the "son" of Sam Carr? There are ZERO known samples of Berkowitz's hand printing/block printing that resemble the block printing on the Borelli/Breslin letters. And no explanation for why BERKOWITZ would claim to be a member of the Carr family. Soooo, maybe someone else printed those two letters...
2. Letters in Berkowitz's cursive handwriting WERE sent to the Carrs, the Cassaras, and Craig Glassman accusing them all of being in some kind of conspiracy to "get" Berkowitz. Sooo, why would BERKOWITZ write letters claiming to BE a member of the Carr family? Maybe to "frame" the son(s) of Sam Carr for being the .44 Caliber Killer. If so, then WHY them? If they were total strangers to him, then WHY pick THEM? He definitely knew the Cassaras. HOW did the author (Berkowitz, or whoever) of the Borelli/Breslin letters link the Cassaras to the Carrs? The author of the letters seems to have known some details of Carr family life. HOW did Berkowitz know those details, if he didn't know the Carrs?
3. So, by way of corroborating evidence--that is, evidence that tends to prove Berkowitz somehow KNEW the Carrs, might include: A. Work history. Wheat Carr and her husband worked for Yonkers PD. Craig Glassman was an auxiliary deputy sheriff for Westchester Sheriffs Office. Berkowitz had been an auxiliary police officer across the river in the Bronx. Did he meet Wheat and/or Craig that way? B. Berkowitz rented a room from Jack Cassara. How did he meet Cassara? Through Fred Cowan? Can we find any evidence that Berkowitz knew Cowan? C. Can we prove Cassara knew the Carrs? Berkowitz's other letters accuse Sam Carr of taking orders from Cassara. Where did he get that idea? I mean, why THE CARRS? D. Craig Glassman's father was also named Sam. Is the "Son" of "Sam" a reference to being a son of Sam Glassman? How would BERKOWITZ know Craig's father was named Sam?
4. Berkowitz's address book had quite a few unlisted PRIVATE HOME numbers of prominent people. No names, just unlisted numbers. WHERE did he get them? Sam Carr ran an answering service for such people. Did Berko get those numbers from one of the Carrs? HOW?
5. Okay, so quite a few things suggest that Berko knew John Carr. So, why did he accuse SAM Carr of taking orders from Jack Cassara? Can we find any connection between Cassara and Carr besides those letters?
That's what we're looking for. Where do we look? Well, we'll need as much information as we can get on Sam Carr, Jack Cassara, and Craig Glassman. Which we don't have much of. Yet. So, we can't rule OUT connections between them, either. Bottom line: I believe it's worth LOOKING. Because we HAVE found some rather startling CONCRETE evidence confirming a LOT of what Maury claims in his book...
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Post by oceancastle44 on Apr 30, 2020 13:48:10 GMT -6
Great post from Omega and response from Admin Horan.As of right now I'm believing the question of whether David Berkowitz acted alone revolves around his relationship or non-relationship with the Carrs.Did he have a big enough hatred toward the Carrs to try and implicate the brothers in the killings.Or,did they in fact introduce Berkowitz to the cult and participate in the killings/shootings?The death's of John and Michael,not long after the capture of Berkowitz,really intrigue me.One would think that Wheat Carr could give answers to some questions butI understand that she doesn't want to talk about it.
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Post by Admin Horan on May 2, 2020 7:56:08 GMT -6
Well, I'd say the evidence, like witness descriptions, is the main reason we're doubting that Berkowitz acted alone. Whether the Carrs knew him, or not. But lots of witnesses have said John Carr was involved in a cult back in Minot, and a few said they saw him hanging around with Berkowitz once or twice.
A lot of the murders, including Stacy Moskowitz and Carol Marron, seem to have something to do with the New York glamour world, and Michael Carr worked in that world as a "stylist to the stars" etc. So, there's that possible connection.
Now, FWIW, I think BERKOWITZ was (and is) more of a leader than a follower in all of this. He had some police training and quite a bit of "infiltration tactics" (How to get in/get out, etc) when he was in the Army--including some experience as a "street preacher" in Kentucky. He'd been the leader of a "volunteer" fire squad at Co-Op City.
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ace
Full Member
Posts: 184
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Post by ace on Apr 18, 2021 12:18:59 GMT -6
Those parts of the Breslin letter ("John Wheaties", "Wicked King Wicker", "Son of Sam") would have seemed like gibberish to the average professional and amateur sleuths following the case back in the day. But, to people in Yonkers, this had to be very familiar.
The Carrs were well known in Yonkers. Sam ran businesses and employed many local people. Why would there be so many direct links trying to draw a straight line to Sam Carr? Seems unusual to do, if involved.
The jury may still be out on John and Michael's involvement in all this, but for Sam Carr, it seems he is very much a victim here.
These are still great points. In his latest video, Manny describes 70's Yonkers as the wild west. In that environment established business owners are often either shaken down on the reg or part of the overall problem.
Drugs and cops in one's back pocket could explain the reckless nature of hanging a big neon sign? I know I've had a few drinks and written things on social media that I had to later delete, lol. Now imagine that but on cocaine and absolutely no fucks given.
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louie
New Member
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Post by louie on Aug 18, 2021 18:54:01 GMT -6
On the Zodiac subreddit (ugh, redd*t,) I was inquiring about Sam Carr, if anybody ahd any info on his early life, origins, what have you.
This was before I found out Carr is a surname on the level of Smith or Taylor. Someone connected to the Eureka card has a relative w/ the last name Carr. And I knew 'Sandy' had a shirt that WILLIAM CARR's mother wrote his name in.
These are all very loosely related to the case but I figured I'd just ask because it's fascinating. Eric Weil, one of the all-around spookiest players in Zodiac lore said his name was Sam, the only name ever given to Z. It turns out his dad's name was Sam.
Anyway, I went on to mention that the Carr's are very prominent around Redding, CA. A Shasta community (they intermarry w/ the Kennedys. The Kathleen ones tho.) I mistakenly said they dominate Sikiyou, because that's where Mt. Shasta is. I also pointed out that they married into a Haight family, don;t know if it's THE Haight family.
Anothr user then told me this--> In another weird twist. About 30 years ago I was on a bus and there was a woman who I assumed was a crazy lady, and she was spouting what I thought was nonsense. She was talking about the Zodiac Killer and how he was connected to a race horse called Siskiyou. She said it was on Ronald Reagan's ranch and was owned by a wealthy family called the Carr Family. She went on about how the whole family was crooked and involved in extortion and murder. They kicked her off the bus because she was bothering everyone trying to get someone to listen. I hadn't thought of that day for all of these years until I read your post. Very weird coincidence.
I responded (I'm just goin to post the rest of the whole epic conversation®)-->
I don't know. Really weird that I mention that and this guy allegedly hears this woman going off.
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louie
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by louie on Aug 18, 2021 19:03:22 GMT -6
Here's Some More
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Post by Admin Horan on Aug 19, 2021 11:29:26 GMT -6
Mt Shasta is, according to some Native American tribes, the home of a subterranean race of demigods. Some white people think this is proof that "Lemuria" is under Mt Shasta.
Bob Hope was not quite a "pedophile," but he did use up and throw away a LOT of 16-21 year old girls. Everywhere he went, he would rent an entire top floor of a hotel. And hundreds of people have said he hosted orgies there every week.
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Post by curiows on Aug 19, 2021 21:21:06 GMT -6
First time poster, Hello everyone! I'm always hesitant to make these tie-ins and speculation on a grand scale. Trump and Reagan nope. The Bob Hope angle is interesting as a concept if you're writing a comedy screenplay and I like it very much. Maury Terry had the same problem on a lesser scale than some of the bizarre connections posted earlier. WOW! Maury of course started attempting to tie in a few too many elements on too grand a scale. Proper investigation/research builds timelines for the people involved with documentation and interviews. Testimony of course being preferred but scarce in this case. In fact there is NO LEGAL TESTIMONY in this case with the exception of Berkowitz's original bullshit confession. None whatsoever as there was no trial.
Concerning John Carr-
John Carr committed suicide in North Dakota, there was no murder. USAF officials contacted Ward County Sheriff Glen Gietzen to remove a civilian (John Carr) who was living on the AFB illegally. Carr had been discharged in October of 1976. Gietzen arrived at the home of Linda O'Connor, Carr's married girlfriend and asked if John Carr was there. O'Connor confirmed John Carr's presence and a rifle shot was heard at that point. Gietzen immediately opened the doomin r to the room Carr was staying sec.in and found the body. His death was investigated within seconds of the shot. This is all in episode two of the Zeman docu-series (time 48 min 16 sec). Maury went on for a dozen pages of b.s. about Carr's death possibly being murder when he already knew it was not. Other b.s. has been floated concerning John Carr's body being someone else's and him being alive as well as irregularities with an autopsy NO ONE has produced or has yet been found.
Until we can see the autopsy all the other theories are pipe dreams and speculation of the worst kind.
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louie
New Member
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Post by louie on Aug 20, 2021 17:29:01 GMT -6
First time poster, Hello everyone! I'm always hesitant to make these tie-ins and speculation on a grand scale. Trump and Reagan nope. The Bob Hope angle is interesting as a concept if you're writing a comedy screenplay and I like it very much. Maury Terry had the same problem on a lesser scale than some of the bizarre connections posted earlier. WOW! Maury of course started attempting to tie in a few too many elements on too grand a scale. Proper investigation/research builds timelines for the people involved with documentation and interviews. Testimony of course being preferred but scarce in this case. In fact there is NO LEGAL TESTIMONY in this case with the exception of Berkowitz's original bullshit confession. None whatsoever as there was no trial. Concerning John Carr- John Carr committed suicide in North Dakota, there was no murder. USAF officials contacted Ward County Sheriff Glen Gietzen to remove a civilian (John Carr) who was living on the AFB illegally. Carr had been discharged in October of 1976. Gietzen arrived at the home of Linda O'Connor, Carr's married girlfriend and asked if John Carr was there. O'Connor confirmed John Carr's presence and a rifle shot was heard at that point. Gietzen immediately opened the doomin r to the room Carr was staying sec.in and found the body. His death was investigated within seconds of the shot. This is all in episode two of the Zeman docu-series (time 48 min 16 sec). Maury went on for a dozen pages of b.s. about Carr's death possibly being murder when he already knew it was not. Other b.s. has been floated concerning John Carr's body being someone else's and him being alive as well as irregularities with an autopsy NO ONE has produced or has yet been found. Until we can see the autopsy all the other theories are pipe dreams and speculation of the worst kind. Even if John Carr committed suicide, it doesn't rule him out of a cult. Maury Terry is irrelevant, so is some netflix docuseries. No one said John Carr's body was someone else's (Absurd. Or is it?) There was no speculation or theories from anyone here. I asked about Sam Carr on redd*t, gave some (wrong) facts* AND then this guy started telling me about this 'crazy lady' he knew on a bus. Absolutely no one knows if she was telling any kind of truth because, well, she was crazy. So they dropped her off at disneyland fin
*even worse, tbh, I had no idea how common that surname IS. whoops. the results an ignorant question receives are not voided out by the ignorance of the questioner tho. unless the questioner is willfully ignorant and asking a destructive question and you beat him up. then THOSE results should be voided out
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Post by curiows on Aug 21, 2021 1:30:30 GMT -6
I agree Louie, I don't think it changes a thing concerning the shootings or his involvement in the cult. However there's a ton of misinformation still being spread, leading to blind alleys in regards to his death. Maury Terry spent at least a dozen pages of Ultimate Evil listening to Cinnotti and Gardner chase their tails trying to make John Carr's death a murder. It's almost like a spell comes over people when it comes to this issue, it's mind boggling. People want to see murder here and so they do.
Did Maury Terry ever interview Ward County Sheriff Glen Gietzen in regards to John Carr's death? He did, but his account of Carr's suicide isn't there. Instead Terry goes off on a tangent and sort of teases us with alleged discrepancies concerning his autopsy. Until the autopsy is produced any references to tan legs and two inch differences in height are meaningless.
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Post by Admin Horan on Aug 21, 2021 8:46:28 GMT -6
IF the corpse in the photo is John Carr. If. For one thing, and we have to take the word of Minot police detectives here, the corpse was supposedly 2 inches shorter than John Carr. For another thing, police "identified" the corpse by its fingerprints. But, according the detectives in charge of the case, those corpse fingerprints disappeared, and were mailed into the Minot PD a couple of weeks later. So, not only do we NOT know for sure about murder vs suicide, we don't even know for sure if it's John Carr. And surprise, surprise, we CAN prove that Craig Glassman FAKED his own death. We're working on Michael Carr.
And remember--Craig Glassman was ALSO a "Son of Sam." Sam Glassman.
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Post by tomfromqueens on Aug 21, 2021 12:02:23 GMT -6
And remember--Craig Glassman was ALSO a "Son of Sam." Sam Glassman. It has been posited that statements in the Borelli letter are tinged with a Scottish accent - “ugh, me hoot it hurts sonny boy.” Has anyone confirmed whether the Yonkers Carr family had any Scottish lineage? Though not conclusive, it would at least suggest the letter was pointing to Sam Carr and not Sam Glassman.
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louie
New Member
Posts: 29
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Post by louie on Aug 21, 2021 21:35:16 GMT -6
I agree Louie, I don't think it changes a thing concerning the shootings or his involvement in the cult. However there's a ton of misinformation still being spread, leading to blind alleys in regards to his death. Maury Terry spent at least a dozen pages of Ultimate Evil listening to Cinnotti and Gardner chase their tails trying to make John Carr's death a murder. It's almost like a spell comes over people when it comes to this issue, it's mind boggling. People want to see murder here and so they do.
Did Maury Terry ever interview Ward County Sheriff Glen Gietzen in regards to John Carr's death? He did, but his account of Carr's suicide isn't there. Instead Terry goes off on a tangent and sort of teases us with alleged discrepancies concerning his autopsy. Until the autopsy is produced any references to tan legs and two inch differences in height are meaningless.
Heres what I THINK I know about John WHEAT Carr (by all means correct me) >career member of air force >discharged for drugs >died 2-16-78 in Minot, N.D. >shotgun blast to the head >OSI initially said it wsa probably homicide >changed when NY got involved >was in Yonkers, at SAM CARR's home just a few days before >back to Minot on Valentines Day >phoned his ex-gf >The Heat Is On >carr had been subject of a manhunt in NY >john carr fits description by witnesses >so does Michael >john was in NY for at least 4 shootings despite living in ND >was in houston when billy dan parker bought the .44 Bulldog for berk >john's b-day was crudley's b-day AND the death day of Arlis Perry of minot, ND >john was in a cult >gietzen walked in on a black mass >chalices of urine and skinned dogs >john carr knew berk and drank urine and was committed for speaking in tongues to abraham lincoln IDK. I don't see what the big deal is if he committed suicide or was murdered. Or if it was even his body. There was a 'satanic cult. I guess my main question is Who Was Sam Carr? (another question is- Where Was Stephen Blake Crawford Stationed In The AF? >jp ranier >led something of a charmed life >street preacher like berk >knows dahmer >he of the magical abilities to evade capture and tour mondale's office after placing a call on a pay phone >bad dude can lug a 450lb vat of acid around town and get it up to his abattoir of an apt w/o anyone noticing >takes part in stonewall >why shouldn't gay men be viewed as a sovietized ethnic group, one that parade around children dressed in dildos while my mother, who thinks watching the view is a civic duty, cheers them >my mother, the woman who equates scarlett johansonns ass on screen with covid >covid is the black death in her mind >who's anyone to judge* >mr real estate is a head muckity-muck w/ ymca >the good ol ymca. muscular xtianity. thrusting, fisting xtianity >beirut mark david chapman the dakota rosemarys baby >ok i have no idea why theyd wanna kill lennon >mr real estate dies >no foul play but whoops some guy says he murdered him so the cops exhume him because they missed that he was murdered and said it was a heart attack >head muckity-muck at untermyer park buys his house. I mean there is actually proof that there is NO cult because they do a real shitty job trying to hide it. I live in Inwood, about 10-20 min away. Pretty much everyone around here either doesn't remember the case or think Berk's dog told him to do it. There's this older guy, Manny and he said maybe the wisest thing I ever heard - 'Society is a satanic cult, bro'
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