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Post by Admin Horan on Oct 18, 2020 20:37:40 GMT -6
Well, a lot of cops were PAID to look the other way. It was a shakedown racket.
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ace
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Post by ace on Dec 13, 2020 2:31:44 GMT -6
I am playing catch-up with a vengeance but the more I watch the podcasts and think about the players, the more superfluous “the cult” becomes almost. As in, you can traffic drugs or work security at kinky parties or whatever your side hustle duties might be without signing an Infernal Pact. So is the “cult” stuff sort of like being “made”? “Let’s see just how faithful you are, now kill this dog”...?
Has this been addressed and I just missed it? I get the concept of contracting heavy work out to weirdos. Berk and his associates were weirdos. But was the cult aspect incidental?
I was a little kid in the 70’s, and while I was a long way from New York I can clearly remember that all aspects of “the occult” were very popular. My mom and her friends were all heavily into astrology and card readers (lightweight stuff) but they all knew about “devil bookshops” and cult activity (connected directly to the devil bookshops, just like Magickal Childe). So I don’t know how much the occult specifically was a lure for Berkowitz because it was everywhere. It was trendy.
The Amityville Defeo material is what has my wheels spinning in the mud.
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Post by Omega on Dec 13, 2020 8:49:02 GMT -6
The occult definitely became "trendy" in the late 1960s - 1970s. Pop culture items like movies/books i.e. "Rosemary's Baby", "The Exorcist", "The Omen", etc. definitely fueled the fire. Some believe that the Lutz "Amityville Horror" haunting/hoax aspect was to take advantage of how prevalent the occult was in society's minds and pop culture at the time (mid 1970s). As far as the "cults" that someone like Berkowitz was involved with (the "22 Disciples from Hell" aka "Yonkers"?) most were young and in their 20s. Probably most got involved with it because of the social aspects. There were probably a few who were hard core occultists and knew the correct lingo and protocol. Guys like Berkowitz probably only knew the periphery stuff. On a related Process item, Ed Opperman did an interview the other day with a guy (Jared Garret) who grew up in the Process (see link attached for the interview). I almost tuned out of the interview, after a few minutes, when the guy never heard of the Maury Terry/Son of Sam connection to the Process and Ed had to fill him in. But, as the interview progressed, you could tell the guy was sincere and knew of the history and background of the Process (including the Manson visit). It could be that there is "no there, there" when it comes to the Process connection to Son of Sam, when you hear a sober individual like this.
Here's the interview:
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Post by Admin Horan on Dec 13, 2020 9:35:43 GMT -6
I think it just comes down to having some kind of belief system that enables you to commit murder and other horrible crimes. Some people use Christianity for that excuse. I think the other factor is, this is how some of these assholes knew each other. Whether it was the Lions Club, Costello's NY mob, or "The Process Church." Then, within such a subgroup, you have those who form cliques. Within Freemasonry, there are orders you can join that don't share their secrets with just any Freemason.
Is there some other thing, some idea, some trend, that runs through a lot of these otherwise differently named cults? I think so. I call it gnosticism, for lack of a better word. It predates Christianity, but managed to infiltrate and infect Christianity. And Islam. And Buddhism. And so on. It's a belief that one can learn to "outsmart" death, or otherwise avoid death by "consciousness expanding," or learning to live "at a higher level," blah, blah, blah. And eventually BECOME a "god" themselves. And people who believe in this come to believe they are above the law and morality. And that makes them very, very dangerous. Especially when such a cult appeals to a sociopath.
Where did it come from? It's mentioned in the oldest book of the Bible--it's the "secret" teaching that the Serpent whispers in Eve's ear. The Pharaohs of Egypt were promised by the priests that they would become gods--if they followed and obeyed the teachings of the priests. that's what the Egyptian Book of the Dead IS: instructions for how to become a god--IF the priests successfully mummify you and then resurrect you. The Tibetan Book of the Dead is another one.
You can't be a hitman or CEO or Caesar or POTUS and call yourself a "Christian." You need some other religion that excuses what you do.
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ace
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Post by ace on Jan 10, 2021 11:18:22 GMT -6
Robert DeGrimston is nagging me today. We're to believe he simply fucked-off and got a "real job" at either the phone company (hmmm) or set up shop as an architect (what kind?), depending on the source, after essentially walking the earth as a prophet among men for some 15 years or so?
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Post by Admin Horan on Jan 10, 2021 20:28:41 GMT -6
I totally forgot to mention--Robert David Little was suspected/rumored long, long BEFORE Eyler's accusations. And you'll notice, he got his MA and PhD in the library sciences program at UW Madison at the same time Mary Brunner was an undergraduate in the same program. She graduated in 1965. He was there from about 1961/2 straight through to 1972.
I'd say more about him if he were dead. A lot more. He's a lawyer, now. Lives in Chicago. I don't know if he has an active practice (he's 83.) But the day he dies...
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ace
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Post by ace on Apr 18, 2021 15:45:16 GMT -6
Was Mr. Real Estate a Processian?
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Post by Omega on Apr 18, 2021 16:25:05 GMT -6
Was Mr. Real Estate a Processian? I don't think there was ever a direct link or reference made of Mr. RE being in the Process.
I think the main Process link for the Yonkers cult is Ken M. the Australian, who was a recruiter at Untermyer in the 1970s. The thing is, this was probably happening everywhere in the 1960s-1970s that the Process was "recruiting" all over the place for members. Maybe not to groom satanic killers, but just in general.
The "Ken" link and possibly some influence from Ed Sanders of "The Family" fame, is probably what got Maury to incorporate The Process into "The Ultimate Evil" narrative. Obviously, it gives an opening to get good ole Charlie into the mix also!
I'm in the camp of The Process not being a main driver in The Son of Sam/cult story. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by Omega on Apr 18, 2021 16:43:41 GMT -6
The thing is, this was probably happening everywhere in the 1960s-1970s that the Process was "recruiting" all over the place for members. Maybe not to groom satanic killers, but just in general.
I'm in the camp of The Process not being a main driver in The Son of Sam/cult story. Just my 2 cents.
I just read Carl's book, and he's "Process, Process, Process", so now I have to give them a second look. I hear ya. And that's the beauty of all this new, good information out there currently - everyone presents a side or belief for others to take into consideration.
I just hope Carl was enjoying a pint or two of Guinness on those nights at Kennedy's and not some of Maury's special Kool-Aid!
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ace
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Post by ace on Apr 18, 2021 18:18:50 GMT -6
I think it was Carl Denaro that pointed out the upper echelon of the Process was called "Omega", as was the task force appointed to capture the Son of Sam. Must have been something in the water. Many such cases.
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Post by Omega on Apr 18, 2021 19:15:24 GMT -6
I think it was Carl Denaro that pointed out the upper echelon of the Process was called "Omega", as was the task force appointed to capture the Son of Sam. Must have been something in the water. Many such cases.
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Post by marionumber1 on Apr 19, 2021 20:54:02 GMT -6
I think the main Process link for the Yonkers cult is Ken M. the Australian, who was a recruiter at Untermyer in the 1970s. The thing is, this was probably happening everywhere in the 1960s-1970s that the Process was "recruiting" all over the place for members. Maybe not to groom satanic killers, but just in general.
The "Ken" link and possibly some influence from Ed Sanders of "The Family" fame, is probably what got Maury to incorporate The Process into "The Ultimate Evil" narrative. Obviously, it gives an opening to get good ole Charlie into the mix also!
I'm in the camp of The Process not being a main driver in The Son of Sam/cult story. Just my 2 cents.
I myself have also been conflicted about the role of the Process in this story. What I tend to suspect, though, is that the official Process Church organization is not the nucleus of the conspiracy but does function as an unofficial recruiting grounds for these murder-for-hire cults. People in the Son of Sam network do seem to have used the "Process" name and borrowed certain Processian ideas, and the connection with Ken does hint that some of the people who found their way into the cult did so through him bringing them into the Process. My belief is that those who are on the outskirts of society, lacking direction or purpose in life, are prime candidates to be drawn into Process-type organizations that give them some kind of purported secret spiritual power; and from there, those who are true believers in the power of "Satan" can be lured over into the actual violent cults. Many critics of these satanic cult stories would argue that the alleged adherents (Thomas Creech, David Berkowitz, Henry Lee Lucas, etc.) know very little of "actual" satanic practices. But strictly adhering to a quote-unquote legitimate satanic organization is not the point; the point is the underlying idea of individuals having no limits on the power they exert (or as I would argue, exploit) over others. This is an attractive ideology to those on the bottom rung of society (including many known serial killers who exhibited some form of satanism in their lives and/or crimes) who feel powerless and adrift, giving them an apparent moral justification for senseless violence. And it would not be surprising for the intelligence services and organized crime (as if the two are really separate entities) to promote these ideologies for the purpose of gaining a large stable of deniable "lone-nut" hitmen to draw from. Think Philip Arthur Thompson, who is a CIA/mob hitman and serial killer known to have practiced satanism. In that sense, it is interesting how many of these satanic churches seem to have intelligence and/or mob backgrounds. Anton LaVey's father was purportedly a bootlegger in Chicago during Prohibition, and LaVey himself claimed to have been acquainted with Bugsy Siegel and Meyer Lansky while working for the circus. We also can't forget the alleged 1980 plot to kill Ted Kennedy that was said to be helmed by LaVey and involve the Chicago mob. And the Church of Satan included an inordinate number of members in the police, military, and intelligence, one of them being Michael Aquino who later broke off to form his own Temple of Set whose top leadership also included multiple military intelligence officers. The Process Church was incorporated in New Orleans by Tommy Baumler, who worked as a spy in ex-FBI agent/CIA asset Guy Banister's office; other people in Banister's office included David Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald. Doug Mesner, the founder of the Satanic Temple, was alleged by his ex-partner Shane Bugbee to have spoken about writing reports for the CIA. There is a very curious pattern in the background of these satanic groups that have attained the largest recognition.
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ace
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Post by ace on Apr 20, 2021 7:14:31 GMT -6
Adding to the confusion of it all is that, from what I’ve read about the 70’s NY occult scene, splinter groups and collaborations were not at all uncommon. So-and-So might be a Wiccan one day and OTO the next. Or So-and-So might tell both groups to take a hike and form their own hybrid.
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Post by mannygrossman on Apr 25, 2021 13:00:30 GMT -6
I'm just one man and my opinion doesn't really carry any more weight than anyone else, but in my humble opinion we in the SOS community need to move on from the Process. The story of the cult's origin in North Yonkers is an infinitely more interesting story. Chasing the Process is like searching for a four leaf clover. But the 22 Disciples of hell, and their earlier incantation "the Lake Ave Boys" were real people with real stories and the connections I am learning about are highly fascinating. I am trying to ground the SOS story by bringing you this local information as I learn it. I believe ultimately in freedom, so keep on with looking at the Process if you wish. I will never belittle or demean anyone for that. I was once a big believer in Maury's California stuff too. But I personally don't think there are any answers in looking down that road. And as I learn more about Maury the man himself, I am finding that he definitely played with the truth with his Process stuff, and seemed to actively cover up his greater knowledge of the original members of the 22 Disciples.
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Jon
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Post by Jon on Apr 25, 2021 17:59:21 GMT -6
One of the most confusing items in Maury's book, for me, was the lack of distinction between the preexisting Yonkers cult and the Process Church. He did say that they were two separate entities that later became allies, but I don't think he stressed it sufficiently because there are also passages in the book which give the reader the impression that the Yonkers group was somehow an "offshoot" of the Process. I still wonder to what extent the Process Church was involved in the Son of Sam attacks (beyond the planning that is said to have happened at Mr. Real Estate's house and Ken's recruitment efforts at Untermyer Park, the details of which remain murky). The clearest indication we have of the Process's role, strangely enough, might be in the name "The Twenty Two Disciples of Hell." According to this article, the inner circle of the Process in June 1966 consisted of 22 members: www.animals24-7.org/2020/11/15/best-friends-move-cults-white-privilege-the-rise-of-animal-rights-activism/Maybe when the Yonkers cult allegedly fell under the sway of the Process Church in the early '70s, its insider membership was reorganized along Process lines to reflect the English group's influence (as in "We had 22 members, so now you'll have 22 members")? I don't know. But no matter the extent of Process involvement in the Son of Sam attacks, it certainly seems to have been members of the Yonkers cult who did all the dirty work and took all the risks.
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