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Post by hope on Nov 11, 2020 22:19:48 GMT -6
I'm very sorry you had to go through something like that John. Glad to hear you and your brother are ok. And you are right, in situations like that protecting family is priority.
I too believe Sue came out trying to protect her family. The lack of defensive wounds on John and Dana definitely seems like they were taken by surprise. Didnt expect things to take such a turn. I think yours is a very plausible scenario, especially when you take into consideration:
• The multiple reports of John & Dana at the least smoking weed • Several people claiming stolen drugs (acid being specifically mentioned) were the reason the murders happened. • Reported past incidents of drugs (weed) being stolen & blamed on Johnny • Don & Nancy Davis both told PCSO Johnny was difficult/out of control, got into fights at school and smoked drugs. • Dana's pants being partially unzipped • Johnny's wallet being found thrown behind the sofa
We know PCSO claimed no drugs were found in the victims system yet we have never seen the actual report confirming this. Police departments withhold information all time, its possible they just didn't want it out they were seriously looking into drug angles.
I still feel someone in Tina's periphery could have been responsible. However, something with the boys is up there as well. And I agree, people out there know more than they have said, especially perhaps the people close to Dana & living in the group home at the time.
It would be nice to hear more about this "confirmed ride home" of the boys' that night. Why has this person not been named, are they not credible? Why would Kathy not want to ride them home herself as she promised? I dont buy that she didn't want people to know about she & Dana. Seems people already knew about the affair, Dana & Johnny were at her place that day, why not ride them home as well, why call a family friend to do it? Why wait 35+ years to come forward with that information? Everyone knew police were looking for the person who rode the boys home so the could hopefully eliminate that scenario. I doubt PCSO would think a woman, on her own, could commit the crime, so I cant see her being that concerned of being responsible for the crime, (especially if she was bartending that night?).
I know the Meeks & Marilyn are completely unreliable but wasn't Gamberg's wife in the college computer class with this mystery woman, Sue & Marty? Wouldn't Gamberg's wife have also known or suspected Marty & Sue were having an affair at that time? There are no other reports of Marty & Sue having an affair (other than the anonymous note to the HS counselor). People from Quincy used to be on the old forums, yet this rumor never came up from anyone else?
And finally, it is too bad PCOS did not seem to follow up on the Howard lead. Or if they did we have never seen any reports of it. I'd love to hear what he had to say & find out his whereabouts that night. He may just check off all the marks - older (at least than Tina, John & Dana), supposedly knew all the victims, involved in the drug scene, suspect in a similar murder of a young girl (his own sister), left the area immediately after & behaved strangely afterward.
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Post by johnreno on Nov 12, 2020 1:41:13 GMT -6
Thanks Hope. Yes it was difficult in the moment, and it took a while for us to feel normal again. This was the late 90s and gang apparel was the fashion for many teens and young people (with no gang affiliation). It took a good six months before the hair the back of my neck to not respond to the sight of a “gangster” in the checkout line.
The thing is, my brother and I both agree that had we been alone we would have responded differently. Neither of us wanted to be the cause of harm coming to the other. I think muggers especially are aware of this dynamic and often seek out couples and pairs. We were attacked by a group, but I think even solo attackers learn they have an edge when victims are wary of provoking harm to a loved one. Which brings me back to the profiler’s mention of control in cabin 28. On the surface it looks like chaos, but this guy is confident. He’s done it before.
On your other points: my basis for calling Dana and/or Johnny as the primary focus is largely because they were feral kids. If Sue and/or Tina were the focus, the attackers could have come by, almost literally, at any other time of the day or night and not had to contend with two able-bodied teenagers. I know this raises the question that Johnny and Dana could have been confronted elsewhere, but it puts emphasis on the issue of who gave the ride home, and why. If Johnny was suspected of stealing drugs, maybe there was motive to search his residence.
Agree with you on the toxicology report on ALL victims. Let’s see it.
As above, Tina could have been targeted, but she was also feral (unsupervised) and even a garden variety child predator could have easily absconded with her. No need for 3+1 murder mayhem.
The ride home is weird. Kathy B is reported to have a place in E Quincy, but her parents house is a 2 min walk (through the Downtown Trailer Park) from the gas station where J&D are reported to be hanging out on 4/11. The confusion and concealment here is frustrating. I don’t believe any woman was involved in this crime (much less Sheila).
Any rumor about sex between Marty and any other person outside his marriage I take with a grain of salt. Marty was obsessed with Marilyn, and ironically moralistic despite being a grifter himself.
The Howard angle. Totally agree. There are so many common points of contact, from Kathy H, to Lynette M, and (finally?) cabin 28. Do we have anyone in Yuba County who could run Kathy’s DNA, do they even have her DNA? I know it was early days, but if they have her clothes, maybe something?
Btw, Gary M is not on my list for any of these crimes, but at what point do you have to ask yourself “why am I one degree away from the stabbing deaths of 5(6) people, including my own sister?” Who are the people in common with Gary and the victims?
Just my observations. If I missed something, please correct me.
JR
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Post by hope on Nov 12, 2020 5:48:08 GMT -6
Nope, no corrections here, your observations seem spot on to me! Good thought regarding Yuba County & Kathy. Kmik recently pointed out sexual assault was believed to have occurred in her case and shouldn't that mean there is some evidence to check. I hope and assume so. If there is DNA evidence, I wonder if it has been uploaded into the database? That would be a great start. Did you happen to listen to the episode on Keddie Paul Holes' did on his podcast, The Murder Squad? It was nicely done and he offered Plumas County assistance. I hope they take him up on it, with all his connections the case may finally be solved. And just to clarify my thoughts about Tina, I don't necessarily think someone came there with the intention to kidnap her. But i do wonder if perhaps she planned on meeting someone that night or called someone and somehow things got out of control. Just the way I was thinking. And how about this.....turns out in 1981 Kathy was telling PCSO that she had heard Donna Williams was the one who rode the boys home....
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Post by snoho17 on May 12, 2021 21:23:35 GMT -6
"This offender was motivated by his commitment and love for Tina Sharp. He loves her like a father. In all probability, Tina Sharp was planning on running away with him." OK this hasn't been my favorite theory but since I can't rule it out, who loved Tina "like a father"? Uncle Don? I don't think he was looking to ditch his own wife and kids to live happily ever after with his niece. Marde? Not on your life. The teacher, would be great if he hadn't been ruled out yet, wasn't he home alone from 11ish on? Seabolt.....hmm, Doug Albin? It was stated that Tina was excited about the idea of Sue getting married, was Tina actively seeking a father figure? I could definitely buy that! Were there any other men who fit the bill?
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Post by hope on May 14, 2021 18:43:02 GMT -6
Honestly, I tend to go back and forth between the murders occurring because of something pertaining to Tina or something with J&D. In my mind, anyone of the victims could have been the target & were all classified as high risk based on victimology assessment. But I lean towards Tina or J&D for a couple different reasons. We've talked about it many times before, but it does appear as if started inside the cabin, something triggered things to escalate.
I still feel guilty when discussing Tina. She was just a little girl who a victim of circumstances. But ignoring some obvious red flags related to her isn't helpful either. And I just mean in general, over the years, Tina & something involving her is overlooked a lot in this case.
Going back to the filming of the documentary, the early forums & reports released, there was so little regarding Tina. You can't help but wonder if the reason for this is what was in the reports & statements discussing Tina. Perhaps things the family, Josh, or even LE didn't want out there. We have seen a couple questionable things from the PON list and recently Dmac came across more in the files he obtained.
And again, I am not victim blaming. She was a child and the hand she was dealt in life was not her fault. Its terribly sad & I wish her life circumstances could have been different. On one hand, people said she was a sweet, affectionate little girl, small for her age & academically "slower" than her peers. But on the other hand we hear she was street smart & "older than her years". We know she was a victim of sexual abuse by at least her father & Daniel Wordman French. Her teacher had an inappropriate relationship/obsession with her and was at the very least grooming her.
In regards to who a "possible father figure" type, as mentioned in Douglas' report could be, based on the newer info released it could be anyone. In addition to French & Lipsey its likely there are other "men". We don't know who she was around & very possible she unknowingly placed herself in a bad situation & involved herself with the type of person Douglas profiled. In regards to the men we know of in her life and the ones you mentioned, I personally have questions about Seabolt Sr. & Dareyl. But that's for another post. I will say, they are 2 men from Keddie, who knew the Sharps & were not home the morning the murders were discovered. They both returned home around noon. Dareyl's alibi is questionable & Seabolt really had no alibi because he was on that wood cutting mission solo dolo.
Also, the fact Tina left the cabin fully dressed, down to her shoes & jacket is unusual. Doug Thomas has been criticized a lot for his comments & insinuations of "Tina being an integral part of the investigation". However, I dont think he would said those things if they didnt find something that made them question things. A normal reaction upon discovering that scene would be the missing 12 year old was kidnapped, but it wasn't that cut and dry for them. The boot prints at the scene do appear small & Tina's GASS boots were missing. The DNA of an unnamed female found on the brown electrical cords may very well be Tina's. The mention of Tina helping collect cords has been around for years and came from somewhere. Of course all of this may have been done unwillingly & DT was probably wondering the same thing.
Something else we have discussed but worth pointing out again, Tina is the one person I can see all 3 boys staying quiet for. Sheila's comment during her one taped interview "when Tina is found it may take her a while before she can explain what happened." If the boys knew Tina left with the killers perhaps they didnt know what happened, didn't want to get her in trouble, figured she'd be back one day & she would explain what happened. Just like Sheila said. But then she never came home. It would also explain the family's (aunts & uncles) indifference to Tina missing.
Also, do you guys think it was weird that during part 2 of the ABC10 segment that Hagwood & Gamberg discuss Tina & the possibility she was pregnant? Those rumors have been around forever & believed to be just that, rumors. But i dont believe would Hagwood would repeat unfounded rumors for no reason. I'm wondering if perhaps they found something that makes them believe there is some truth to that rumor. One of the people connected with that rumor supposedly worked for the health department back then.
Will continue this in a seperate post next.....
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Post by hope on May 14, 2021 19:31:02 GMT -6
Let's see, here are some statements from the PON list regarding Tina. Kathy Beckley, yes, I do not trust her. But why was this almost 30 year old woman spreading so many rumors about Tina, the Sharps & Marty? She was an "old girlfriend" of Dana's, the boys were at her house that day, she apparently knew everyone, young & old, and I read she used to manage the arcade. Could Dana have told her something about Tina? I just dont understand why I grown woman would spread lies about a 12 year old girl, so maybe she was more in the know than I ever gave her credit for?? For what its worth, everyone else connected with the pregnancy rumors denied saying it. PON Entries:From Trisha's Interview: From Joel Lipsey's interview, creep:Now for some posts of Dmac's discussing things he found in the case files recently: There were two other posts which I do not have saved: The first one was regarding Dareyl Josephson's interview. Dareyl told PCSO that Tina had been propositioning men for money. The second was a post from April 2021, Dmac went to lunch with Hagwood prior to the ABC10 segments airing. Whatever Dmac learned obviously upset him and he made the comment that "Tina was gone baby gone" long before the night of the murders. In regards to GASS boots, I came across this post from Raemen. I hadn't noticed that in the Plumasnews article. But its interesting because in Rick's recently released interview (posted below) he says Tina was wearing blue sneakers that day. In the crime scene photos, there is that pair of blue sneakers, similar to the Keds brand everyone wore in the 80s. But when Sheila did her walk through after the homicides she noticed Tina's brown GASS boots were missing. This is from a more recent post of Dmac's, he is describing what Rick said in his interview: And finally, Tina's Victimology Report. I also think its worth noting, in addition to John Douglas, others with LE background have come to a similar conclusion as Douglas when reviewing the case. EDIT: Also, adding this screenshot of what Sheila had to say in a 2011 chat. Here is if transcribed in case the screenshot is difficult to read: And I'm adding the Kathy Beckly document where she mentions the pregnancy and Marty eating puppies:
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Post by kmik on May 14, 2021 20:23:44 GMT -6
Excerpts of reports saying Tina was pregnant by Marty:
It's clear the talk of Tina being pregnant came out of the Health Department. Maybe Shanks talked to someone (confidentially) about the possibility of Tina being pregnant and word then got around the Health Department (as often happens in the workplace) and then spread outside the workplace.
From this report T(?) who worked at the Health Department was the one who told this story and Kathy Beckley is the one who inserted Marty's name into it as being the father.
Who/what prompted Shanks to talk about Tina with someone from the HD? Was he checking to see if Sue had brought Tina in to be tested?
Why did Crim talk to Betty Laird at Social Services? It seems Betty knew enough about the Sharps to know Sheila was friends with Robin Bests daughter and I've little doubt she knew Tina was friends with the little Harper girl from the alleged molesting.The possibility that Tina was pregnant was something the police investigated and certainly should have. That's not victim blaming and most definitely should have been a part of the investigation into Tina - WHO WAS MISSING!!
We will never know if she was or was not pregnant but we can't base that on Sheila saying Tina had never started her period. I'm no doctor but from everything I've read a young girl can get pregnant before she has her first period.
*The "T" has always been assumed to be Trish Pettis since she is listed on the PON list as denying telling the pregnancy story.
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Post by kmik on May 14, 2021 20:41:59 GMT -6
I'd like to add that while it is certainly possible that Tina was pregnant - it would have been impossible for anyone to say who the father was without the baby being born and a DNA test.
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Post by karis on May 14, 2021 20:46:29 GMT -6
Robin Best was a RN. She is also listed as being a psychiatric nurse in the FRB 06 May 1981. In 1980 she was appointed to the Plumas Co Mental Health Advisory Board.
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Post by snoho17 on May 15, 2021 18:15:49 GMT -6
I have little faith in what sheila said then or now, on that point Im in agreement with D. But I believe she just had so little interest in her siblings. Her and John were close in age and shared some friends, but it doesn't sound like they were close. Many teens are self centered and don't pay alot of attention to things in their periphery. I think she was fairly malable, like Marylyn at the time, and much of what she remembers was heavily influenced. Hope, I like it here because I don't think most of us came aboard to make speculative moral judgements. Good bad or indifferent. I became so interested in this case because these are "my people". I certainly knew of girls being sexually active at 12, its not right but its not uncommon and doesn't make her "bad" in my eyes. If anything tina breaks my heart. Teen boys are idiots and want to prove themselves, by getting involved in adult dealings. Nobody starts dealing drugs at 30. I've known a few people who were killed young because they got involved in illegal activities. For the most part they were not bad people, just young and dumb making bad decisions.
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Post by snoho17 on May 15, 2021 18:26:34 GMT -6
Also, I'm wondering Where the hell was Sue gone to all the time? I know she had a short stint as a dishwasher, she took a single class at the college, and visited the meeks. Why would she hang out there so much without the younger kids? Glenna meeks (probably exaggerated) but still, states that the kids were always at one of the two houses. It sounds like they hung out more at the meeks though. She dated some, but the instances I've read about were in the evenings so where was she spending so much of her time? I don't see any references to her hooking until the boards? Where did that story originate?
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Post by hope on May 15, 2021 19:35:02 GMT -6
Snoho, I completely agree with you when you say these were "my people ". I feel the same way. I do not look down on them one bit based on any of the things we have heard or talked about. They were just trying to get by, like a lot of people. I cannot imagine how hard it was for Sue to be a single mother of 5. To move across country, just her and the kids. That is difficult enough today, let alone in the early 80's. There is a lot of talk of Sue letting the kids run wild or being uninvolved, sitting on the couch smoking & drinking coffee, etc. But god damn, I cannot imagine how hard her life was. It doesn't mean she didn't love her kids. I'm sure she did. She had to have felt so overwhelmed and most likely depressed. Mental health services weren't as readily available as they are today and people didnt talk about or understand it as much back then. The girls were exposed to things they shouldn't have been at an early age. Like you mentioned, teenage boys don't think about consequences they just have fun & do what they want. I 100% believe they were involved with partying, drugs & alcohol but, again, it doesn't make me (us) think any less of them. They were just teenage boys doing what teenagers do.
In regards to Sheila, I feel like she was less than forthcoming because she didn't want people to look down on her family or people to speculate they brought it on themselves. I don't think anyone feels that way but i can understand her worries. When the documentary first came out I think things were said, things people said about her family that she was never aware of. That had to have hurt & she went on the defensive. She didnt want people to think the crimes could have occurred because of some activity one of her family members were up to. She seemed to feel/wanted to believe it was a random attack. And I remember she said she had no idea Zonita Seabolt felt that way about her family. So hearing those rumors all those years later must have been hard.
When I first heard of this case, the thing that stuck with me is how Keddie should have been a fresh start for the Sharps. Things should have been looking up but instead the most horrible thing imaginable happened to them. My birthday is actually April 10, 1980. So I think about how I had just turned 1 year old & although my family was struggling financially, I'm sure they were happy & family life was just starting.. And that same day the Sharps & Wingates had their happiness ripped away. It's such a terribly sad case and I just wish closure could be given to everyone involved.
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Post by hope on May 15, 2021 19:49:30 GMT -6
In regards to Sue & the rumors, I wish we knew more. Obviously that's what the locals were talking about for Metcalf to bring it up in the documentary. Zonita certainly didn't mince words. The way she said "I didn't feel any better about Sue then than i do now." That was harsh. Even 25 years later her opinion was that way. And I'm sorry, but her family didnt seem to be doing much better than her neighbors. But what else did she have to say, what did she witness to make her feel that way? I feel like Josh probably kept a lot out, whether things people told him or things people said in LE reports. The way Jamie S & other neighbors were always setting Sue up with "dates". Its odd. And for Dareyl to tell LE that Tina was propositioning men, Sue had to have been aware. Did the whole town know? So many questions.
I do believe Tina may have been pregnant. As kmik said Shanks most likely went to the health dept looking into the possibility, then someone leaked that info and word spread. But where did the rumors start? And as you guys also mentioned, Sheila saying Tina couldn't have been doesnt mean anything. As mentioned, girls can get pregnant before their first period, I think the youngest girl was 5 years old(?), according to the guiness book of world records. Poor little girl, can you imagine going through that at 5 years old? What a messed up world this is.
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Post by kmik on May 15, 2021 21:16:37 GMT -6
I feel that Sheila, like most of the people involved in the documentary, never guessed that little on film would become what it is today. And after joining forums to discuss the case she could see people were asking and telling way more than she ever expected to have to discuss - so she backed out slowly.
When she teamed up with Gamberg to do the ID show she probably felt he would protect her from having to go through all of that again - after all he was on her side (he supposedly knew the family so protecting their memory was his first concern). But trying to paint the family out to be the opposite of what they, more than likely, were doesn't help this case at all - and goes back to Shaver letting Sheila leave Keddie that day because she was upset - hindsight is it didn't help - yet we fully understand why he did.
I can't even imagine where this case would be today (solved?) if they (family) would have just laid out the good, the bad, and the ugly and let LE decide for themselves - assuming none of the family knew what happened. I feel like Don was as truthful as possible about Sue, just not sure he was that truthful about Tina. And from what I've read about Tina it is absolutely possible that she was pregnant or saying she was pregnant - and no that does not make her a bad kid - she was seeking attention like every other kid on the planet.
I change my mind weekly on the possibilities of what could have happened. I don't think John Douglas was fed any lies unless it was lies that were fed to LE. I once watched a man describe an investigation he was involved in where John Douglas was asked to do a profile and he said he walked into the room, picked up the crime scene photos and just immediately started profiling - just from the crime scene photos and the man was just amazed by this (by the way he ended up being spot on - and this was a true crime show not a John Douglas documentary).
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Post by snoho17 on May 16, 2021 12:14:56 GMT -6
I absolutely agree with both of you! If Sue was hooking, or Tina was pregnant it totally needs to be discussed because these things have definitely been the motive for killings in the past. But my feet in Sheila's shoes, I'd want to protect my loved ones memories from internet ass hole trolls. I can't imagine my life being put on display like that. With this case I've felt guilty at times, like a peeping Tom. I hope nothing but the best for the surviving victims and understand they need to live their lives with what's left of their privacy.
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