Post by Admin Horan on Apr 25, 2019 8:35:07 GMT -6
You know what? This is longer and more detailed from what I had been going by. Which I just now realized, thanks to snoho pointing out the "blood is present in a thin patchy fashion..." For example, Dana's jaw and teeth were [according to this] actually fractured.
I will take good look at this next month...
"When a man lies, he murders some part of the world." —Paul Gerhardt
Don't hate but....I think Dana died last. I also think it's probably irrelevant. If COD was partially caused by asphyxiation. It would make sense to me that the initial attack was a frenzy of blows (fists,hammers,knives) on both boys then Sue. After dropping the weapons its noticed Dana's not quite dead, but he is dying. They want to finish him off, but the violence used in the beginning to overtake and control the 3 is no longer necessary. The killers probably exhausted and burnt out, he only needs to choke that last little bit of life left
Exactly. Why would 2 boys who, (according to Mike G) had taken some Judo lessons from him, not have fought back just a little? If they walked in on Sue being attacked by 2 men, how could those 2 men abandon a fight with Sue (who possibly could have gotten away) to restrain 2 boys? Also if the boys were fighting back then why not bind their hands behind their backs?
It would be easy to say the boys were ordered at gun point (with the air rifle) to put out their hands to be taped up, but even with their hands taped they could still move their arms up and down to ward off blows (or just out of pure reflex) - but no marks on their arms.
Also Dana was found on his stomach and his wrist binding had been broken. We know he wasn't bound while laying on his stomach so either he came to at some point and broke free and was knock back down falling on his stomach, or the killers grabbed him by his bindings and broke them (which would seem hard since the tape was wrapped several times).
A few thoughts 1)My uncle owned a dojo, it takes Alot of practice to train effective muscle memory, 2) Having worked in bars, there's nothing worse than a pipsqueek with a few karate lessons under his belt thinking he can take on a bigger,seasoned street fighter. 3) By age 12 I sure as hell knew what a pellet gun looked and FELT like (thanks brothers;) there's no way I could have been intimidated by one. And I would bet the bank both boys were familiar with pellet guns in general, but also this one in particular. -always contrary,always devils advocate:)
That makes sense. Have you or anyone else looked into his diabetes playing an effect on rigor? I have tried researching more on that myself but have come up with nothing, maybe I am not wording it right when I research it. Also, I think in Joshs documentary or on another forum someone working on the crime scene said the bodies hadn’t been moved for about 6-8 hours after they were discovered, I’m not sure if that is true because Dana’s Foster dad had said he had gotten the call to identify the body at 10 am, almost two hours after Sheila discovered them. If it is true and they had waited a long time to have the body’s examined, couldn’t that play a huge part in it as well?
I have looked a little into diabetes/ATP depletion, which does affect muscles after death/during rigor. Mr. Horan mentioned before somewhere that organ temp would be the best way to approximate TOD. And I'm inclined to agree, but all stones turned.... All 3 victims were fairly small,thin left in the same environment same temperature
I agree Soho no way these boys were held at gunpoint by a pellet gun, but that has been a scenario though certainly not one I believe. At this point we have no idea where the gun came from and very well could have come from 28 - if so then they all knew what it was. Yes Dana could have very well died last but these bodies went to Andersons Mortuary in Quincy and didn't go to Sacramento for autopsies until the next day. I doubt Dan was at the funeral home by 10:00am. That is what he told, from memory years after the murders, on the documentary and besides Pat Dorrises report from 1981 said Donna Williams called her Pat 10:00 and that was the first they had heard about the murders.
Don't know how the attacks happened but I do know the autopsy reports say no defense wounds - and I take that to mean they did not fight at all. Maybe they were knocked in the head immediately and the killers had no need to hurry. They took their time to get a hammer from somewhere in the house and knives from the kitchen drawer and I don't rule out the medical tape coming from 28 at all. In Stoy's evidence report it states that the bathroom cabinet door was taken with possible blood on it - and the photo of the cabinet door shows what looks like blood dripping down the door.
I’m not sure if this is considered a defense wound but Johnny did have a bruised knuckle, probably from punching someone. Maybe that indicates that they hit Dana from behind first, and then when Johnny started fighting back they hit him in the head? Just a thought. But I do agree with them not being intimidated by a pellet gun. Just sounds ridiculous to me
Yes it could be but I'm just going by the autopsy report (which of course could be debated):
The thighs, knees, legs and feet
all show no injury. The hands show adhesive marks in areas of ligature.
The base of the long finger of the left hand shows dorsally a 3/4 inch
zone of bruising, and the hands otherwise show no evidence of trauma.
The bruise could have happened during a punch or could have even occurred earlier and had nothing to do with the murders. I would think if he punched somebody hard enough to bruise his finger he would have had bruising on more than one finger - but that's just my opinion
Kay, I thought the same thing at first,but it depends. 1) how old was the fat lip? It's been said that there was an earlier fight.....sigh allegedly 2) so did that bruising come from an earlier fight or during the murder
If I'm remembering correctly, the ME describes a layer of the gag as a nylon female undergarment. The nylon undergarment being a bra originated in discussions had on keddie28. When Dmac went to Quincy he was able to see photos never released, including the gag, but I forget the specifics. The gag makes me shudder, poor Sue 😥
Post by cassiopeia on Jul 30, 2021 21:15:25 GMT -6
This is sticky for me. Where did the perps get her other bra from? I'd thought the nylon undergarment meant sues panties that were cut from her. I've seen posts she was tidy, so they'd have to spend time in her bedroom going through drawers to find the bra, right?