Here is another example in 28 posting without checking his "facts".
April 22 post: I have explained about 5 reasons, over and over, why Sheila was where she was and why Tina died instead of Sheila. It's Seabolts/Sue wanting Sheila at 27, because Sheila tried a sleepover and failed. Apparently, it's Sheila's first attempt to get friends to come to 28 for a sleepover since she came back to Plumas after giving birth to Richard's kid.
KNOWN STATEMENTS TO POLICE
Friend of Sheila, spent night with her week before
Yes, no failed sleepover as indicated by 28, since Karrie had already spent the night with Sheila the week before. Alice Thompson is the only girl we know of that Sheila asked to spend the night, but she was already obligated to babysit.
Quote by 28:
We know two people were awakened due to the screams. Same location, same bed even. One woke up to it and alerted the other. The position of that house to the back window of the girls' room is a home fucking run to Tina screaming: direct line-of-sight to her position in that room. Questions, without any forethought, will continue to be posed about why the Seabolts slept. Fuck them, I'm so damned tired of this topic. Without a fresh perspective and new input, the subject is as stupid and dead as Marde Smartt.
Forget why the Seabolt slept - why didn't these people also hear the screams:
810412-0115c (0115-0120) Arthur Jawad leaves Back Door Bar and sees old P/U in parking lot. Does not hear any dogs barking. <Arthur Jawad / Bradley>
810412-0130c James Jones goes to bed at his Keddie cabin & Jawad is not there. <James Jones / Stoy>
SCHMID, <THOMAS> Lived Keddie, got home @ 2000 4/11/81, saw female doing dishes in window, up til 0200 saw nothing <SHAVER>
So you have Art Jawad and James Jones who were up till at least 1:30 and lived across the street from the bar, with Art going to and from the bar during this time period. Thomas Schmid lived as close, if not closer, to the Sharps than Mike and Barb and he was already awake at 1:15am - but neither he nor his wife (who was obviously asleep) reported hearing anything. Barb Meyers said she heard muffled screams at the rear of her cabin (not across the yard), had time to wake up Mike so he too could hear them, yet nobody else heard them nor was it so odd that they got up and investigated.
Quote from 28:
ALL THE BOYS WERE FUCKING AWAKE. THEY KNEW. WHY would Justin continue to lie and be called a willing participant, but Rick isn't? Oh, fuck my dead mother! The psychology behind Justin's involvement and willful denial is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT to Rick's. Or Greg's, for that matter. Become a degreed, expert psychologist, renowned for disproving Stockholm Syndrome, then we'll talk.
Well the good thing is you don't have to become a degreed, expert psychologist, renowned for disproving Stockholm Syndrome, to discuss on this forum the possible reasons why Ricky Sharp said he was asleep through the murders. Do I believe all the boys were awake? Yes I do (but that's just my opinion). Do I think it's possible that somebody threatened Ricky and Greg by saying they would kill Tina if they talked? Certainly could have but why not at at the very least come clean with the story after Tina's body was discovered, or during the documentary filming, or after all of the news articles and shows on the murders? Or anytime within the last 37 years? Ricky never lived around Marty after these murders (and only lived near him for around 5 months before the murders). Marty was dead by the time Josh did the documentary - so yes I definitely wonder why more people don't question Ricky's silence just as much as they do Justin's stories.
Post by Admin Horan on Apr 22, 2018 19:45:12 GMT -6
Um, is it possible that Sheila had spent the night at Karrie's house? That might tell us something about her relationship with Sue.
"974" told officer ___________ that Henry Thompson had told him that they all started at a party at Tom Schmidt's house, dropping acid. IF so, then Chuck, Henry, Tom S, and his wife all lied. Henry admitted that "974" had indeed told the truth about Henry's confession. That is, Henry admitted to police that he told 974 everything 974 had said Henry had said. To 974. So, what? Well, according to Henry himself, he either lied to 974, or lied to police. Why would he lie to 974? Why confess, and in a way that implicates your "friends?" Henry said he was tired of people calling him "Keddie Machete." WHY WOULD THEY? Why did so many people who knew Henry think he had done it?
On the other hand, why would he--and Chuck and Tom and his wife--lie to police? Besides the glaringly obvious? See what I mean?
Now, about the kids' stories. I've said before that I believe it's possible they did not wake up during. What I don't believe is the story that ALL FIVE surviving kids told about the night before. They claimed, each one of them, speaking to police one at a time, that ALL SIX KIDS (including Tina) went to straight bed at almost exactly 10:00pm, and all six WENT STRAIGHT TO SLEEP.
I don't believe that at all. Someone tell me they believe it. What happened BETWEEN 10:00 pm, and the murder of Dana Wingate (the first victim, according to the autopsies)? Some of those kids know. Maybe all of them. Why else would they all tell the same lie?
I think the Karrie Best statement (regardless if Sheila spent the night with Karrie or Karrie with Sheila) proves Sheila did have friends she spent time with after coming back from Oregon. Alice not spending the night with her isn't proof of some failed attempt by Sheila to round up a bunch of spend the night company on the night of the murders. As far as we know Alice is the only person she asked.
Is it possible that Rick and Greg slept through the murders and woke up for the first time when they were summoned to climb out of the window? It's certainly possible but not likely - especially if the door was open and Justin went in and out of that bedroom.
Post by Admin Horan on Apr 23, 2018 11:03:11 GMT -6
That is a good point about Sheila having friends.
Now, let's get back to Sheila and Alice's story.
Version A: According to everyone's statements at the time, the story goes that, as of noonish Saturday, Sheila is planning a sleepover at HER home, Cabin 28, with Alice Thompson (and Alysa Seabolt and whoever.) Even though Sheila and Alysa know by now that Zonita won't let Alysa go inside Cabin 28 at all, let alone sleep over. As of noon, Tina is apparently expected to stay with the Seabolts, as usual, and it seems that there is a plan for Justin to stay in Cabin 28 as of early that afternoon. If Sheila thinks, at noon, that SHE is having a girls sleepover, then what was the plan AS OF NOON for Johnny and Dana's sleeping arrangements? Cabin 28? With a house full of teenaged girls? Glenna Meeks calls Cabin 28 at 9:05ish pm and announces that Dana is coming to Cabin 28 with Johnny, so Sheila (without Alice) is now "SUDDENLY" invited to stay with Alysa in the Seabolt Cabin--and Tina is summoned home to Cabin 28--apparently by SUE, and AFTER she gets the call that Dana is coming home with Johnny. Moms? Does this make sense to you?
Version B: Years later, we are told basically that Sheila and Alysa are planning a girls sleepover in the Seabolt cabin, where Tina would normally be staying on a Saturday night. So, Sue agrees to (or plans or whatever) a BOYS sleepover in Cabin 28, which will include Dana and Justin. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut, at the last minute, AFTER Glenna Meeks informs Sue that Dana is coming with Johnny to Cabin 28 (where Justin is ALREADY STAYING) Sue (or whoever) decides that Tina will stay in Cabin 28? The ONLY girl sleeping with a tiny house stuffed full of BOYS of all ages??? Not to mention, Jamie Seabolt Jr is staying with the girls in the Seabolt cabin. Moms? Does this make ANY sense to you? As far as that goes, what was SUE doing spending the night in a house full of nothing but boys? And we're not talking altar boys, either.
Years later, for Josh's documentary, Sheila and Zonita change their stories to say that THEY sent Tina home. To a house full of boys. At the last minute. Because they decided this would be "older girls" only. Even though we're talking about Alysa and Sheila and--two younger Seabolt girls, right? Pula and what's-her-name? They were the same age as Tina, if not younger, right? Okay, so WHY would Zonita and Sheila change their stories? Because this one doesn't make any more sense. I mean, Sue didn't send Tina (or go herself) and discuss this with Zonita AT ALL??? "Uh, we're having a house full of boys tonight. Why can't Tina stay at your house tonight?" But apparently, there was NO DISCUSSION at all.
Moms? Help me out. I mean, I grew up in a pretty low class family, but even we weren't THAT low class.
Either they (Sheila and Sue and Zonita) had this planned all day, or they didn't. But NEITHER version makes sense. At all. I don't care how "trashy" anybody's family is, this just doesn't parse. And if it's SUE's idea to keep Tina home in a house full of boys, then what does that make Sue? If, on the other hand, Zonita decides it's okay to let Sheila sleep under the same roof with Jamie, AND for Tina to sleep under the same roof with 5 boys (including one 17-year old,) then what does that make Zonita?
See what I mean? NO discussion between Sue and Zonita about this? AT ALL???
Totally agree raemen2. This is the most believable scenerio. Tina happily doing dishes? Paleeeze. She was in a good mood that day. Excited almost, I'd say.
And, Tom, I'll give you a little insight to raising girls. Had 'em. Came from a family of 'em. FWIW JMO
"Could it be???" (Spoken in my best Oak Island Voice :-) ) that Sheila wanted a sleepover--ANY sleepover. Didn't really matter WHERE it was. She just wanted to be with friends. So. it's what girls do when THEIR OWN sleepover doesn't happen -- is to make arrangements for ANOTHER sleepover. Moms aren't really in the loop with this stuff. I'm guessing what happened was Sheila wanted a sleepover and Sue said fine...What did she care? She had no plans. TV? Her nails? Sewing? She wasn't going anywhere. But, that fell through.
Then, Alice couldn't (for whatever reason) and Sheila asked Alysa if she (still) would and plans changed again (because nope nope not my Seabolt daughter and that Wingate kid) and they decided to stay at Seabolts. So, plans changed again. Maybe a fourteen year old girl whining. "But, I don't want Tina there, Mom! God! Let me have my own friends!" So, Sue, calls Tina home. (Trust me. Two teenage daughters? You can only please ONE at a time. But, dear Lord--we try. haha)
Could it have been a little secretive "we'll meet up later" thing with the girls? Who would want Tina around for that?? Not Sheila and certainly not Alysa. (But, Old Man Seabolt sure had his ear to the ground) so, plans change again... Tina comes home. "Johnny and Dana will be here and we'll make popcorn." Tina's happy medium.
Roll that around in your minds. Sue just doesn't seem like the person to make popcorn every day of the week. Sounds like a special treat for (girls night--Just you and me, Tina. It'll be fun! sort of night.) Burritos? Tell me they ate THAT every night. Coming from a "fend for yourself" sort of family? Now, they're doing burritos and popcorn? Not saying Sue was doing that, but um...Sue was doing EXACTLY that.
Look at us. All just sitting here eating burritos and popcorn. Totally normal family here. EXCEPT for it wasn't. Sue was doing what all good mothers think they should do. Kudos.
So, the plans sit (as of now) Sheila and Alysa staying at Seabolts (yay! Sheila's happy!) and Tina doing dishes and eating popcorn with Mama Sue waiting for "the boys" (yay! Tina happy!) to come home. Except the boys didn't come home right away. Maybe because they had their OWN stuff going on. Maybe Sue told Justin, Ricky, and Greg, "Okay fellas. Off to bed" and they did. Everybody is impressing everybody else. Sue being a great mom. Tina being "Betty homemaker". Let's face it. The younger boys were oblivious to any of this.
Tina. Sitting up. All dressed. Waiting to be part of the Johnny/Dana TV watching fun times. She didn't have pajamas on. She wasn't out of her clothing. She certainly may have gone to her bedroom but, she sure wasn't asleep. We all assumed when Tina came out and said, "What's going on" it was in a sleepy time voice. But, what if it wasn't?? What if it was a "Hey, I went to my bedroom because Mom said it was bedtime and the boys will be home later so here I sit in my clothes and wait for them anyways and now something's going on" sort of voice. The tone of Tina's voice would mean everything. She was 12. She was doing dishes and (possibly) doing yard work and had been told she was going to eat burritos and popcorn and spending time with Mom, Johnny, and Dana. SHE'S TWELVE. What girl wouldn't be in a good mood?? (Like I said...I come from a looonnng line of girls here...)
So, Sue, being the Mom she's always wanted to portray, feeds kids. Gets them to bed (decent time. See? Good mom. Tight ship here...Chop chop. NORMAL family here. Supper. Check. Snack. Check. Bedtime. Check)
I'm just surprised she wasn't baking chocolate chips FFS. Okay. So, maybe that was me. haha :-)
So, after check, check, and check, she sits on the couch and smokes her (second to last cigarette--not the lAST cigarette because she's saving one for morning) and gets herself to bed. Things are quiet other than maybe a "Tina get into bed" (because by now Sue would know Tina was waiting up for the boys and that just AIN'T happening. And, Sue hears the boys come in and goes out to say goodnight or to check if Johnny's eyes are all red (but Tina can't follow because ya know, Tina doesn't want to admit she's crushing on Dana--or anyone else for that matter because Mama Sue is on high alert and they both know it). ***We don't know if Sue was attacked in the bedroom. A lot has been d-facted about this, but truly WE DON"T KNOW. How long does it take for a mom to step out of her bedroom to check her kid's eyes? Coming out without her glasses might just have been a Mom Message: I'm all ready for bed. No funny business, boys. I've had a long day. Glad you're home. Goodnight." Check. Check. Check.
The boys come in and all hell breaks loose. It depends on what time the boys got home and the murders took place. Maybe the boys were watching tv or maybe it happened shortly after they got home? Either way, Sue came out of that bedroom without her glasses. No Way LE staged that. That's. Just. Dumb.
Do I believe the boys were asleep through the whhhhoooolllleee thing? Nope. Do I believe they would have stayed in the bedroom? Yep. Do I believe time could have gone by and they were actually asleep when this took place? Yep. It'd take me approximately 3 minutes to pop two kids with a hammer. I guarantee you, I could do it with very little noise. And, I'm only one old person. Let's just say two people. I think Johnny and Dana were attacked pretty close together. Sit still for one minute. Sixty seconds. It's a long MOFO time.
So, what it boils down to on that April 11 is this: Sheila happy. Tina's happy (but somewhat disappointed.) Mom exhausted from Burritos and popcorn and the I'm a good Mom impessing the neighboorhood. Marilyn, Marty, and Bo doing their own thaaaannnnnggg and someone coming in and doing a terrible crime.
I agree that Tina may have decided, on her own, that she wanted to stay at 28. Both Sheila and Zonita told Shaver in 1981 that Sue did not give Tina permission to spend the night at the Seabolts. I agree Tom, I don't believe Zonita ever asked Sue, that day or any other day, if Tina could or could not spend the night. I don't think Sue cared who spent the night at her house - she had a house full of kids either way - and don't imagine she cared who hers spent the night with. It's not like these kids lived across town, they all lived right there within a stones throw of their own homes. I would also like to say that I don't think Zonita cared who stayed at her already full house either. I have Zonita pictured as going to bed early that night and having no clue what any of the kids did after Alysa cooked supper and relying on Sr. and Jr. to know what time Tina actually went home.
You are absolutely right JMO, these murders didn't take all night! If Johnny and Dana were on the floor watching tv or asleep all it took was a hit with the hammer not a big struggle. But with Sue - she did fight with somebody so she probably made the most noise (hence the gag) but it didn't take all night.
Post by Admin Horan on Apr 24, 2018 7:56:54 GMT -6
Well, I think matters a LOT about who decided--and when--about who would be in what house that night. Why does it matter? Because, what happened to Tina happened because she was at the wrong place, at the wrong time. That's usually a pretty big clue--ESPECIALLY when what happened to Tina is still such a baffling mystery.
That's why it matters WHY Tina was in that place at that time. Because over time, Sheila and Zonita both changed their stories about it. Why? In their original statements, the "blame" is on Sue. Why would Sue decide that Tina would break routine? Okay, maybe Tina lied. But that still doesn't explain why Sue didn't at least DISCUSS it with Zonita. The boys don't say anything about Tina and her mother arguing about it, which suggests it WAS Sue's idea. Okay, so WHY would Sue insist on Tina staying home THAT Saturday night? Aaaaaand, why would Zonita and Sheila change THEIR stories about it later? I mean, they take the BLAME for it. Why would BOTH of them do that?
IF Sheila did start something that went off the tracks later, then obviously, that "plan" included Tina staying with her at the Seabolts. As usual. At first, Sheila and others basically blame Sue for Tina. But, as I'm pointing out, that actually makes SHEILA look suspicious. And even if Doug Thomas and PCSO didn't consider the possibility that "the kids did it," I guarantee you Crim and Bradley did. Why else keep Sheila's full statements such a "secret" all these years?
"When a man lies, he murders some part of the world." —Paul Gerhardt
If definitely matters who made the decisions for Tina to stay in 28 that night. I would like to think that Crim, Bradley, Doug, etc. were asking this question to Sheila, Zonita, and the girls. If they weren't then they were idiots (and I just don't believe that).
Just my opinion but I do not believe that Zonita discussed anything with Sue - ever. She obviously welcomed many of the neighborhood kids into her home and possibly did so because she felt they didn't have the best home life. I just don't think she thought anything about Tina staying or going home that night - because I don't think it mattered to her either way (until later). Shelia said on the forum years ago that they did not spend every Saturday night with the Seabolts and that's probably true. Marilyn said in an old post that Justin, Casey, and Lori had also spent the night at the Seabolts. So the Seabolts had many kids in and out - not just the Sharps. Either Sue (for whatever reason) wanted Tina to come home, or Tina (for whatever reason) wanted to come home, or Sheila (for whatever reason) wanted Tina to go home.
Sheila wanting Tina to go home so it would just be her and Alysa (I know that's what they told on the doc) makes absolutely no sense because Paula and Pearl were Tina's friends and that's who Tina would have been spending the night with not Alysa and Sheila. According to Sheila, Alysa had her own room similar to Johnny's room in the basement so they could have easily kept the younger girls out. Tina going home did not eliminate Alysa and Sheila from the possibility of having younger kids hanging around because Paula and Pearl were still there.
We will probably never know the real reason (big or small) that she went home.
....or, Tina go home and make sure Johnny and Dana know/ show up for our plan later tonight. I've always felt that the kids had plans to sneak out and party that night. Why would kids be tucked into bed at 10pm on a Saturday night? Why is that one fact that is consistent? Because 10pm was the plan. You go to bed early because you have something up your sleeve. Go to bed early so the adults settle in early, no sleeping with one eye open, go to bed early and maybe you can safely sneak out of the house by midnight. Did a party or rumors of a party draw the killers to 28? Did Tina (Justin) leave and return to 28 that night? Who else? While I'm not suggesting Sheila is covering for murder I firmly believe she made an attempt to cover the fact that she ( others ) where not where they were suppose to be that night ....tucked into bed. Innocent or no so innocent...wake up to a triple homicide and kidnapping the next morning and the adults try to take the reins. Where were you? You were where you were suppose to be.
That is a good possibility and if Alysa had her own room (where she might possibly be able to come and go) it would be easy to sneak out. We've always felt like maybe Alysa was hoping to meet up with Dana (maybe that's why Sheila went back home so she could be certain that he was going to be coming home with Johnny) since she was not allowed to see him at her house - they had only been dating for a week so certainly she was hoping to see him, and if not then, when was she going to get a chance to see him? At school? According to the timeline they could only see each other at or around the Sharps.
Sheila once said that when she talked to Alysa, years after the murders, she told Sheila that she just really didn't think about it (the murders).
I don't think anyone really believes that everyone was tucked in by 10:00 - not at the Sharps and not at the Seabolts.
Post by Admin Horan on Apr 25, 2018 9:43:50 GMT -6
"Sheila wanting Tina to go home so it would just be her and Alysa (I know that's what they told on the doc) makes absolutely no sense because Paula and Pearl were Tina's friends and that's who Tina would have been spending the night with not Alysa and Sheila. According to Sheila, Alysa had her own room similar to Johnny's room in the basement so they could have easily kept the younger girls out. Tina going home did not eliminate Alysa and Sheila from the possibility of having younger kids hanging around because Paula and Pearl were still there."
Exactly! Great work! Also, the Seabolt Cabin was much bigger than the Sharp cabin.
The thing is, the purpose of a "sleepover" (especially right next door) is not to "sleep" all night. It's to stay up half the night eating junk food and giggling at stupid things. And how easy would it have been for Sheila and Alysa to sneak out and go to a party, at say, Tom Schmidt's cabin. Which was directly across their back yard. Where several people--except Tom and his wife--said there WAS a party that night. The party that Alice Thompson, Henry Thompson's sister, would have known all about, and would have told Sheila all about. The party Alice couldn't go to because she had to babysit and therefore, couldn't go to the "slumber party" in Keddie to sneak out of. I mean, why couldn't Sheila stay in Quincy and help Alice babysit? Unless there was a party to go to in Keddie? The party that Chuck Walke and Henry Thompson drove all the way out to Keddie for, and then "turned right around and left" because there were no lights on. Right. The party that was all waiting around for Johnny and Dana to bring the acid to.
The thing is, I just don't see any real mystery as to what happened to Sue, Johnny, and Dana. But what happened to Tina is an absolutely baffling mystery. We don't know how she died, when she died, where she died, or how she got all the way the hell out to Camp 18. I mean, it's aaaaalllllmoooooost like Tina is a totally separate "case." And the whooooooooole mystery of Tina Sharp begins with this mystery over WHO decided she would spend the night in Cabin 28. A question that Sheila Sharp has told at least one lie about. (Both of her stories CAN'T be true. AT LEAST one of them has to a lie. Period.)
I mean, the oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooonly possible "link" visible between what happened in Cabin 28 and what happened at Camp 18 is...Chuck [and Cary] Walke. The only "suspect" in the Cabin 28 case who we absolutely KNOW absolutely KNEW where Camp 18 was...
Maybe I should move part of this thread to its own thread...so, I will.
"When a man lies, he murders some part of the world." —Paul Gerhardt
If it was, indeed, Sue who wanted Tina to stay home that night ( that could have been a truthful statement ) it might possibly lay the grounds for motive. If it was Sue it was most likely a punitive action on her part, grounding Tina for the night. Just how angry could a 12 year old get over being denied the opportunity to hand out with friends, the last straw? Unless the surviving Sharps and others in the community know exactly what went down... it's hard to believe that no one, at no time thought, felt that Tina might just be involved in some fashion, a really bitter pill to swallow. If the original statement was factual Shelia just handed LE a motive and that needed to be back peddled.
Post by Admin Horan on Apr 26, 2018 6:27:06 GMT -6
raemen: Exactly. It's ALSO a motive for NOT leaking Sheila's full statements.
On the other hand, whoever killed Sue hesitated to do it. And someone cared enough to cover her body. The available evidence points to Tina as the person who did that. In other words, Tina tried and tried to stop Sue from being finished off. Afterwards, Sheila, Justin, and maybe Ricky, all play along with the cover story(s). Maybe "someone" was worried that Tina WOULDN'T.
The one person who, at this time, we KNOW had a pretty good motive for getting rid of Sue was Sheila. SOMEONE tried to stop Sue from being murdered, and then felt bad about it after. There's no evidence that that person was anyone other than Tina. Why on earth would Marty or Bo or Chuck or Cary or Henry or anyone else BESIDES Sheila take the risk of letting Tina leave that cabin alive? Who? Only Sheila?
On the other hand, "anyone" (including Sheila, or some "outsider" like Chuck and Henry) MIGHT have told Tina, "We won't kill your mom, IF you come with us" AND told the boys, "Tina will be all right so long as you all keep your mouths shut."
Now, which one of those hypotheses explains the lies Sheila, her uncle Don, and Zonita Seabolt told police?
Sheila's ONLY alibi from 10:00pm to 7:00am is Alysa Seabolt. Where is HER statement? Would Zonita lie to cover for Sheila? Would she lie to cover for ALYSA? Come to that, would Zonita lie to cover for Marty, or Bo, or Chuck, or Henry, or...well, the funny thing is, Chuck did marry one of the Seabolt girls (or something. I'm not 100 percent clear on that.) Sheila hints around that Alysa may have snuck out to see Dana. Sheila told severa lies. Maybe this is a lie. Maybe, just maybe, Alysa had a reason to sneak out and SEE CHUCK...