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Post by hope on Jun 8, 2021 18:29:22 GMT -6
Typical, ignore any and all questions. Throw out insults. Your insecurity is definitely showing. Why don't you go back to your echo chamber & post your nonsensical ramblings & jumps in logic that no one reads anyway. No one to talk to over there?
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Post by kmik on Jun 8, 2021 20:48:28 GMT -6
Do you think she ever figured out who that other Sue was? Don’t you think LE asked her? Her buddy seemed to think she’d witnessed something so I’m guessing that was what she told him -
who were all the people who claimed to know that Marty was seeing Sue? I sure hope it wasn’t Kathy or Karl.
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Post by snoho17 on Jun 9, 2021 14:49:11 GMT -6
Nicely layed out Hope, I actually had hope maybe one of your point blank Q's would get an actual response. But alas, I placed too much faith in the dance around King. Seriously D, you'd give Ali a run for his $$$$. Oh well until the next rambling episode.
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Post by raemen2 on Jun 9, 2021 15:30:41 GMT -6
Is there any information on the ME’s estimated time of death for each victim? Is that not something that is notated in official autopsy report?
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Post by kmik on Jun 9, 2021 22:09:35 GMT -6
Not that I’ve seen. The bodies were carried to Anderson’s Mortuary right after the murder and to Sacramento the next day and I also wonder if any kind of test was done to try establish a time of death.
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Post by karis on Jun 10, 2021 6:35:05 GMT -6
If we had the exact time in any report Dmac would say it is a lie. He is after all a medical examiner too!!! He knows all!
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Post by raemen2 on Jun 10, 2021 16:00:52 GMT -6
So true, Karis! It’s hard to believe the ME didn’t issue an opinion on time of death, just something we aren’t privy to. It’s usually a range of time based on factors found during the autopsy, eg) body temperature. I’m wondering if LE’s range of accepted time for the ride home (10pm - 1am) corresponds to the ME estimated time of death. I bet $1 it does.
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Post by kmik on Jun 10, 2021 17:48:25 GMT -6
I sure hope not because that would be exactly when Marty Smartt WAS NOT over at 28 killing anyone.
According to Marty and Marilyn's testimony they went to the bar around 10:00pm (probably about the time that Casey went to sleep) stayed till around 12:30-1:00am then went home (probably so Marilyn could check on Casey and go to sleep herself) and he and Bo went back to the bar until around 1:45am (leaving Marilyn home with Casey). I am sure that this was verified by someone at the bar. So if the killings really started with the 1:15 scream then Marty and Bo were at the bar.
Dmac says the boys were dropped off between 10-11pm and he also said the bulb was unscrewed by the killer(s) SO if the bartender took them home between 10-11pm then the bulb was already unscrewed because she said it was dark. They had to have been killed soon after they got home because they were still wearing the same clothes and shoes they'd worn all day - Johnny hadn't even taken off his jacket. Marty Smartt was at the bar 10pm-1:45am (with MAYBE a 20 minute gap at the longest - certainly not enough time to kill and bind and carry off Tina and go home to change and walk back to the bar).
Dmac says they were dropped off between 10-11pm but the murders didn't start until that 1:15am scream - if true then we're to believe that the boys hung out for 2-3 hours without taking off their shoes or clothes? I certainly would not think so.
Why such a wide window of time that bartender possibly took them home? I believe LE knows what time they were dropped off by the bartender they just don't know if the boys went back uptown.
If the bartender really gave a time frame for somewhere between 10pm-1:00am - then Houston we have a problem - but then again there's already a problem with timing and the Marty theory.
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getem
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by getem on Jun 10, 2021 19:01:15 GMT -6
kmik I can see where you are confused. You missed the part where Marty and John came home from the bar.... changed into there killin' clothes... started the killing...changed BACK into their suits to finish their night at the bar leaving Marilyn to watch over everything...then went back to finish the killings! DUH! LOLOLOL
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Post by kmik on Jun 10, 2021 19:24:49 GMT -6
Good lord you are right I forgot all that! Tack on at least 30 more minutes. UNLESS.... they were wearing their “kill” clothes along with the “kill” kit under their suits and just changed in 28!! Do y’all recall anyone saying the guys in the suits looked bloated? Heck maybe they just stripped down to their underwear at 28 then suited back up at 28 - then headed back to the bar for a nightcap and alibi
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Post by hope on Jun 10, 2021 20:34:28 GMT -6
Excellent post kmik! Every single thing you said is significant & backed up by facts, LE reports, & witness testimony of multiple people. The timeline you so nicely & accurately laid out make it highly unlikely, if not impossible, that MMB committed these murders. It is impossible to accomplish everything Dmac claims they did within the 20 minutes they were away from the bar. Not to mention being able to do so without someone noticing unusual behavior or blood on their persons or clothes upon returning to the bar.
Another fact that is twisted...dmac claims it was Tina who screamed. However, in one of the DOJ reports it states witnesses who heard the screams believed they were from a male (If I have this report I will post it).
Dmac does indeed claim that the murders occurred between 1:30-4:30am, that the boys spent the hours between getting dropped off & the murders downstairs in the basement fully dressed hanging out. That doesn't ring true to me either kmik. Whether it was cold down in that basement or not. Not to mention they had the living room with tv to hang out in. The kitchen upstairs to grab something to eat. Sue probably went to bed in the girls room that night so J&D could hang out upstairs. Where would Dana sleep in that basement? On the cold concrete floor? There was supposedly just one cot down there, correct?
If the murders really occurred at 1:30am & xxx bartender dropped them off around 11:30, then it is possible J&D did leave 28 again after being dropped off. Then the murders started when they returned back home again. They could have went back to town, perhaps with one of the other people who claimed to have drove them home that night? Or just out & about hanging out. Or to a party. Donna Williams told LE rumor had it the boys were at the acid party at Chuck Walkes cabin that night. They could have met up with someone else out & about or someone from the party, invited them to hang out & things went south. Or run into someone who was after them for some reasons. Those bloody tissues in the dumpster. Lots of possibilities of what could have happened. All speculation, just like Dmac claiming they were down the basement for 2 hours is only his speculation, not fact. It just seems more likely that the boys were not home for very long when the murders happened & they didn't have time to react or defend themselves. This is all especially possible if the scream heard at 1:15am really was from a male.
But on the other hand, I think its possible the murders happened earlier. We have never seen reports discussing estimated time of death but I would bet money they do exist. In initial news paper articles PCSO said the murders occurred between 11pm - 8am (the time the bodies were discovered). They then changed this to 11pm - 2am. There must have been a reason for them to say this, most likely because the Pathologist determined 11-2 to be the estimated time of death. We know Sue was mobile at some point during the attack, she had blood on her feet from walking through someone's blood. She had defensive wounds unlike the boys. The evidence makes it more likely she walked out of that bedroom after the boys had been attacked. If the witnesses were mistaken I would say she is the one who screamed & then was gagged. Or didn't scream until she was already gagged, likely during the attack on her & I suppose muffled screams from a gagged woman could be mistaken as screams from a male.
And I would also bet money if this report is around it will never see the light of day. It would be indisputable proof the murders occurred while MMB were at the bar if it did say 11pm-2am. It's easier to keep up with the story that the murders occurred between 1:30-4:30, a time determined by an unqualified person, because it makes their theory slightly possible. That doesn't change the fact its based on opinion and not evidence, forensic testing or expert testimony from a qualified person.
Unfortunately, its impossible to know what the truth is without knowing what these reports say. I know I'm preaching to the choir and we all feel the exact same way. And I'm sorry, but this case is super frustrating. Even if these reports do not exist, the testing wasn't performed, or the documentation not clear enough, a lot of these questions could still be answered using today's technology. 1981 PCSO is accused of being corrupt, purposely performing a poor investigation & even worse. LE at the time didn't have a fraction of the resources & forensics available that are today. In other cold cases the advances in DNA & forensics are discussed by investigators describing how they were finally able to solve cases after 20, 30, 40+ years. You hear absolutely nothing like that in regards to Keddie. It's all speculation, rumor, opinion, hearsay, possibilities, circumferential evidence, etc. I truly do not understand why this case is so different from the other cold cases we hear about being solved everyday.
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Post by hope on Jun 10, 2021 20:42:07 GMT -6
kmik I can see where you are confused. You missed the part where Marty and John came home from the bar.... changed into there killin' clothes... started the killing...changed BACK into their suits to finish their night at the bar leaving Marilyn to watch over everything...then went back to finish the killings! DUH! LOLOLOL Just wanted to say, you're the best getem! I love reading your posts! Thank you : ) And kmik I think you nailed it, they must've stripped down to their undies!!! Makes the most sense, only way to explain how they accomplished so much in so little time & avoided getting blood on themselves. You guys are the best ♡
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Post by kmik on Jun 11, 2021 7:04:20 GMT -6
Yes there’s got to be an estimated time of death - we just haven’t seen it.
I’m not convinced the 1:15am scream was related to the murders. Too many people in and out of the bar and people still moving around Keddie until the early morning hours (Art Jawas was at 1:15am). Mike didn’t tell this to LE until a few days later (16th or 22nd?)and said he and Barb had been to the bar that night but later called LE and said they went to bar on Friday night - so was the scream 1:15am Saturday or 1:15am Sunday?
I do not believe the boys were staying in the basement that night as it was cold according to FRB weather report. I posted that report years ago on Meanies forum and dmac had a fit saying his sources said that report was wrong. While recently viewing the members only section of 28 I was very surprised to see that he had posted that same weather report (it’s on my laptop and I will post it later)
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Post by hope on Jun 11, 2021 9:28:19 GMT -6
That is true, if he wasn't even sure whether they were at the bar Friday or Saturday night then the entire statement is in question.
I remember when you posted the weather report and the response it caused!
Also, the fact Johnny & Dana's autopsies showed they hadn't eaten for some time adds to the likelihood they had not been home for very long before the murders occurred. Chances are they would have grabbed something to eat while at 28, but they didn't.
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Post by kmik on Jul 5, 2021 12:59:03 GMT -6
I know xxx doesn’t want to be named, and that’s okay because we know who she is, but there’s a lot of people on the PON list that got tangled up in this that didn’t want to be pointed out either.
We don’t want to know the name we want to know what the full report says. Then we can move on
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