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Post by hope on Sept 4, 2021 10:46:09 GMT -6
Just started reading Dana's autopsy again. There's this:
Previously, I'd focused on where it mentions the circle marks, assumed those were hammer wounds. Can't be though, the circles are at the edge of long rectangular bruises. A hammer wouldn't leave a mark like that.
Those wounds are most likely from the butt of the air rifle.
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Post by snoho17 on Sept 4, 2021 12:58:44 GMT -6
From Sues "A 3/4 inch
laceration is present in the mid occiput posteriorly. It occurs
approximately l inch above the ear level. It is triangular in shape."
I did a quick glance through at Johnnies and didn't really see anything that wouldn't be caused by a hammer. I'm always looking for the differences in the treatment of victims, but it changes every time! What does make sense is one (living) victim left with one weapon. At least that ratio is consistent. We could be looking for a combat experienced vet or someone who maybe trained with a home grown militia. You do run into 'em in the hills. Rural rugged areas make for the best training grounds. I cant speak for that area of California, but I've known them to be in Or, north east Washington, Western Idaho, and Montana.
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Post by snoho17 on Sept 4, 2021 13:23:28 GMT -6
Also 1) a scope would interfere with a rifle being handled in such a way, maybe it was purposely snapped off? 2) A person trained to handle a weapon like that would probably own a real one themselves. 3) if any wounds needed to be "covered Up' it would be these, or any that give clues as to the identity of the attacker. A whipping from a table leg would be insufficient. I need to learn more about the scope. IFF somebody used the rifle while the scope was still attached, and IFF it broke of as a result, OR IFF they quickly snapped it off themselves there could be jagged metal or screws exposed. The scope was Thomas's hold back and his possible "key". It would have been gone over with a fine tooth comb. The scope got out but no results of any tests. A few days ago I was reading an early article and Thomas says they're almost certain the perps cut themselves. Well yeah, think we've all assumed someone would've cut themselves on a knife, and the cabinet door that has blood running down it? That HAS to be a cut on a hand. I just realllly want to know what they've done with the scope since.
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Post by hope on Sept 4, 2021 14:23:25 GMT -6
Man snoho, I swear we must share some sort of ESP haha. I was just thinking a lot of those same things.
I read Johnny's after readings Dana's and kept thinking how different it is. Johnny's head trauma does appear more consistent with a hammer. The lacerations are described as "some curved, some straight and some stellate" with circular depressed fractures underneath.
In addition to his neck wounds, a knife was used to slice and stab about his ear. As you mentioned with Johnny hands, could Johnny have been unexpectedly hit with the hammer? Perhaps knocked out by this blow. Several more hammer blows then perpetrator heads to the kitchen to grab a knife. And while perpetrator #1 deals with Johnny, the other offender attacks and bludgeons Dana with the air rifle.
Then Sue's injuries appear to be a combination of both Johnny and Dana's injuries.
And excellent thought about the site/jagged edges possibly resulting in an injury to one of the suspects!
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Post by snoho17 on Sept 4, 2021 14:42:43 GMT -6
"Man snoho, I swear we must share some sort of ESP haha. I was just thinking a lot of those same things." Hope I've had the same thought more than once!
"Occasional tiny petechiae are present on the upper pons on section. The ventricular
system, the lateral ventricles, show approximation of their edges and pink spinal
fluid is present in the ventricles."
The upper pons is part of the brain stem controlling motor function among other things (raspatory?) I don't know what "approximation" in the lat ventricles means, but I think they're supposed to contain spinal fluid (is he just stating this is normal?) . Anyway we've got three possible reasons Dana would be acting drunk. Dang it, all we want is one! Edit "The appearance of the sample of CSF is usually compared to a sample of water.
Color of the fluid—normal is clear and colorless. Changes in the color of the CSF are not diagnostic but may point to additional substances in the fluid. Yellow, orange, or pink CSF may indicate the breakdown of blood cells due to bleeding into the CSF or the presence of bilirubin. Green CSF may also sometimes be seen with bilirubin or infection."
The doc specifically says pink spinal fluid and not cranial spinal fluid. I'm getting ahead of myself, time to step away. Hope, I will come back to those puncture wounds. Did you see any possible cross hatching in the (maybe/probably) rifle butt wounds?
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Post by hope on Sept 6, 2021 23:42:39 GMT -6
"Hinge fractures are defined as crushing injuries, such as compression of the head between the ground and a heavy object (ie, a car tire). Transverse hinge fractures extend across the dorsum sellae of the skull, and can separate it into two."
"'Hinge’ fractures occur when the linear fracture passes across the middle cranial fossa, separating the skull base into 2 halves, and may be caused by a heavy blow to the side of the head (e.g. in motorcycle accidents)" It is also known as the Motorcyclist’s fracture.
This is interesting:
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Post by mew1987 on Dec 15, 2021 1:04:53 GMT -6
I want really sure where to post this, but here seems like the most logical option.
I just wanted to post a bit about strangulation/choke hold
1. CHOKE HOLD
If you cut off someone's air supply, it takes a minute or so for them to lose consciousness (how long can you hold your breath). If you cut off the blood supply to the brain directly by applying pressure to the carotid artery (traditionally called a "choke hold" in Judo), they lose consciousness in 2-3 seconds. After loss of consciousness, with the air supply cut off, it takes 5-6 minutes for brain death under normal circumstances.
2. STRANGULATION
In a fight if I were to hold you down and begin choking you it would take about a full minute for you to lose consciousness assuming your heart is pounding and breathing rapidly.
To kill the person you would have to continue to apply pressure sufficient to strangulate for about 4–5 min in order to ensure death…probably longer in some cases.
That is why it is one of the more horrible and harshly punished murders. It takes a long time to do. You have a minimum of 4–6 min to sit there quietly with the person unconscious squeezing with time to stop and reconsider. It’s not a trigger pull instant decision. It’s a process. You can’t argue self defense or heat of the moment with strangulation. You had a long time with the person utterly defenseless to stop and come to your senses as it were.
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Post by snoho17 on Dec 15, 2021 11:19:17 GMT -6
Great post! This is why some theories suggest 1) The killers didnt come in with the intent to kill and 2)Dana was killed first. Admin Horan discussed these theories a few times here. Because, just why would somebody use a sleeper hold? To restrain and control, death may have been accidental. I go back and forth on this one. Its totally plausible but I certainly don't know for certain why anything was done. Which sucks because the why is what leads to the "who".
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camfaults
New Member
Researching cold cases of California.
Posts: 46
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Post by camfaults on Dec 16, 2021 13:55:22 GMT -6
How long does a "sleeper hold" last? Once again, the mention of a wrestling move brings us back to Gamberg. And now we see Gamberg directing the murder motive toward Marty and Bo. Professor Horan's theory of one or more of the boys as drug informants seems a reasonable possibility.
Another thought about Dana's zipper. What if he he was taking a leak and someone came up behind him, grabbed him around the neck just as he had buttoned his pants and was pulling the zipper up? If the boys were running around the town of Quincy all evening/night, where were they going to the bathroom. The gas station? Sometimes gas stations won't let you use restrooms if you're not a customer. Just a thought.
Could they have gone to the Meeks house to eat and/or use the bathroom?
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Post by hope on Dec 16, 2021 18:48:24 GMT -6
I agree Cam. Dana and/or Johnny being an informant is a real possibility. All one needs to do is read some FRB articles to see how common narcotic informants were in Plumas County. There's articles discussing the program but also many, many articles about drug arrests only for the drug charges to be dropped. Gamberg's bust at the arcade is just one example. The paper specifically described the significant amount of drugs and paraphernalia confiscated, yet when it came to trial the drug charges were dropped. One of the guys arrested had "suppression of evidence" paperwork in his car from a drug arrest in neighboring county. There is also a FRB article of Gamberg making an arrest of a man after a high school student bought drugs from the man. Gamberg supposedly learned of the sale somehow, picked the kid up and got the name of the dealer. Then there's Joey stuff. Known informant, named in the FRB as such and Gamberg was his handler.
Why were J&D receiving judo lessons? In the late 70s Gam was an instructor, but he was instructing officers at the police department he worked for. At some point FRC offered adult classes with Gam as the instructor and later juvenile classes. I will find and post those articles. If J&D were receiving the classes at FRC how were they able to pay for them? And anyway, I believe Gam said the lessons were at his house? Then there is claim that Dana was at his house that Friday. Why? It's possible J&D were there because they were friends with his sons. But he never specified that and I would think it would be the first thing one would mention when recalling these memories, ie: "Dana & Johnny were good friends with my kids, they would come to my house often and I would even give them judo lessons while hanging out".
And I need to clarify something here before it gets twisted, because it will. We are not saying Gamberg was the killer. Just that it is not out of the realm of possibilities that J&D were informants which put them in a situation.
That's a good thought about the assault on Dana beginning while he was going to the bathroom. A scenario like that could have even occurred in the cabin. Surprise attack while they were seperated. The lack of defensive wounds on J&D is telling. Everything known about Johnny says he would have fought like hell. Either they were caught off guard or it was someone he knew and didn't think would really hurt him and he allowed himself to be tied up, thinking they could talk this person down & avoid harm. Dana's zipper is also a clue. No reason for someone to undo his zipper to after death. Tom's theory of the killers unzipping his pants looking for wires is a good probability as well. Especially considering the ME was checking for tape residue.
You mentioned food and in my opinion the lack of stomach contents in J&D shows they had not been home for hours just hanging out or sleeping in the basement. Had that been the case, it's likely they would have grabbed something to eat upon arriving at the cabin and then went downstairs to chill/sleep. After all there is no mention of them eating throughout the day/evening. (although I also think it's more likely they planned on sleeping in the living room, watching TV, etc vs sleeping in a cold basement which may not have even had one bed, let alone sleeping arrangements for two people! There was the cot in the boys room which could have been where Johnny slept. A cot can easily be moved around depending on where Johnny planned on sleeping depending on the weather, etc). Anyway, they still had all their clothes, including outerwear & shoes on, and hadn't ate for hours. Seems more likely things happened shortly after they arrived back at 28, not them waking up and running upstairs because they heard some commotion. I think it was the opposite and Sue came out after hearing a commotion that started with the boys.
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Post by hope on Dec 16, 2021 19:03:50 GMT -6
Speaking of people being murdered because it was suspected they were a narc, do we have a thread on Darrell Welch here? I believe we do as I know we've talked about him. I wonder if LE looked into him for Keddie?
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Post by mew1987 on Dec 17, 2021 6:44:25 GMT -6
I agree Cam. Dana and/or Johnny being an informant is a real possibility. All one needs to do is read some FRB articles to see how common narcotic informants were in Plumas County. There's articles discussing the program but also many, many articles about drug arrests only for the drug charges to be dropped. Gamberg's bust at the arcade is just one example. The paper specifically described the significant amount of drugs and paraphernalia confiscated, yet when it came to trial the drug charges were dropped. One of the guys arrested had "suppression of evidence" paperwork in his car from a drug arrest in neighboring county. There is also a FRB article of Gamberg making an arrest of a man after a high school student bought drugs from the man. Gamberg supposedly learned of the sale somehow, picked the kid up and got the name of the dealer. Then there's Joey stuff. Known informant, named in the FRB as such and Gamberg was his handler. Why were J&D receiving judo lessons? In the late 70s Gam was an instructor, but he was instructing officers at the police department he worked for. At some point FRC offered adult classes with Gam as the instructor and later juvenile classes. I will find and post those articles. If J&D were receiving the classes at FRC how were they able to pay for them? And anyway, I believe Gam said the lessons were at his house? Then there is claim that Dana was at his house that Friday. Why? It's possible J&D were there because they were friends with his sons. But he never specified that and I would think it would be the first thing one would mention when recalling these memories, ie: "Dana & Johnny were good friends with my kids, they would come to my house often and I would even give them judo lessons while hanging out". And I need to clarify something here before it gets twisted, because it will. We are not saying Gamberg was the killer. Just that it is not out of the realm of possibilities that J&D were informants which put them in a situation. That's a good thought about the assault on Dana beginning while he was going to the bathroom. A scenario like that could have even occurred in the cabin. Surprise attack while they were seperated. The lack of defensive wounds on J&D is telling. Everything known about Johnny says he would have fought like hell. Either they were caught off guard or it was someone he knew and didn't think would really hurt him and he allowed himself to be tied up, thinking they could talk this person down & avoid harm. Dana's zipper is also a clue. No reason for someone to undo his zipper to after death. Tom's theory of the killers unzipping his pants looking for wires is a good probability as well. Especially considering the ME was checking for tape residue. You mentioned food and in my opinion the lack of stomach contents in J&D shows they had not been home for hours just hanging out or sleeping in the basement. Had that been the case, it's likely they would have grabbed something to eat upon arriving at the cabin and then went downstairs to chill/sleep. After all there is no mention of them eating throughout the day/evening. (although I also think it's more likely they planned on sleeping in the living room, watching TV, etc vs sleeping in a cold basement which may not have even had one bed, let alone sleeping arrangements for two people! There was the cot in the boys room which could have been where Johnny slept. A cot can easily be moved around depending on where Johnny planned on sleeping depending on the weather, etc). Anyway, they still had all their clothes, including outerwear & shoes on, and hadn't ate for hours. Seems more likely things happened shortly after they arrived back at 28, not them waking up and running upstairs because they heard some commotion. I think it was the opposite and Sue came out after hearing a commotion that started with the boys. Wasn’t Greg Hagwood the one training them? Not Mike Gamberg
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Post by hope on Dec 17, 2021 6:49:49 GMT -6
They both knew the boys but Hagwood was their age at the time of the murders. He has spoken of working with them at the Fairgrounds the previous summer.
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Post by hope on Dec 17, 2021 7:02:09 GMT -6
Here's the article announcing Gamberg had joined PCSO. It is from February 7, 1974 _
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Post by mew1987 on Dec 17, 2021 8:32:40 GMT -6
Thanks for that
Gamberg seems very untrustworthy, in my opinion. Claiming the case/police officers were corrupt at the time and saying officers straight out of the academy could’ve done a better job at solving it. Yet, what has he done? Relied on help from (dare I say) an internet troll. That’s not detective work, or justice.
Whether there was corruption is still up for debate, I'm not gonna go into that. But, personally I don’t think there was any. I just think they weren’t equipped for a case that big at the time, the town and sheriff department was too small and they were probably in over their heads. Things slipped between the cracks, because of that.
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