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Post by mysteriouscourtier on Nov 29, 2020 4:56:39 GMT -6
Here's another, earlier, documentary with more of the documented victims;
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Post by mysteriouscourtier on Nov 29, 2020 4:43:53 GMT -6
Well, yes, it is possible for a person to repress their conscience, or their fear of death. We all do it, all the time. Hence the drugs, especially alcohol. "Dissociation" is specifically a dissociation from the conscience 99 percent of the time. Alcohol can help achieve that, but it also dampens every other function. A prefrontal lobotomy is a clumsy way of severing a lot of those neurons, but then, the subject also loses all motivation to do ANYTHING, let alone follow orders. Cerous oxalate ("kamikaze juice") "cures" seasickness and air sickness, but it also "cures" fear of death. That makes it dangerous to give to sailors, but the perfect morning coffee additive for paratroopers about to jump into a combat zone. In Fight Club, the claim is made that "oxygen gets you high so you don't fear death" but the opposite is actually true--oxygen DEPRIVATION numbs the fear of death. (It is also claimed in the movie that human fat has "just the right amount of salt" to make it the perfect fat for manufacturing soap. Again, not true. Human fat is TOO salty to make good soap. Ask the Nazis. They tried it.) But that didn't stop Ewen Cameron and others from trying to induce artificial states of sociopathy, psychosis, amnesia, "tabula rasa," and dissociation. How successful were they? We don't know. But we've seen a lot of their failures walking around all murdery. We do know that the most effective motivation for violence is NOT repressing the fear of death, but TRIGGERING it. In combat, it's "Kill, or die!." In the neurotic, compulsive murderer, it's, "Kill, or die!" but twisted in some way. The latent, repressed homosexual lashes out at Others who remind him of his repressed, despised self. The "theory" was bandied about that "Son of Sam" Berkowitz lashed out at young couples getting it on in parked cars, because of his shame over being conceived out of wedlock in a parked car. Funny, because that was supposedly the MO of the "Zodiac Killer." But, how do you CONTROL such a manufactured killer? That's where ARTICHOKE and MK-ULTRA seem to have failed. Hell, a natural-born sociopath can't be controlled by anything except rewards, and that doesn't always work. It would seem that the "protocol" evolved into the Philip Arthur Thompson/Miguel Ramirez/Israel Keyes model, where you identify and nurture a sociopathic killer, and let him "hunt for sport" in between contract jobs. And then "Jeffrey Epstein/Leonard Lake" him if he gets caught. Maybe that's what happened with Oswald. Maybe he was bumped off because he idiotically let himself get caught (so he could make a propaganda statement, or some other personal reason beyond their control.) The documented Canadian victims of Ewan Cameron's CIA sponsored experimentation, were all adults. There's no evidence that I'm aware of, that Cameron attempted to instill anti-social personality traits in these persons. There are several Canadian TV documentaries about them, like this one; About hypothetical others, and victim claimants for whom there are no records, I can't claim to be certain of the validity. |
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Post by mysteriouscourtier on Nov 29, 2020 3:32:28 GMT -6
My comments about sociopathic personalities not needing to be 'created', shouldn't be taken as dismissing the potential importance, of Miguel's horrendous "mentorship" of young Ramirez.
I'm always intrigued by statements like this, in biographical write-ups; "Ramirez also began using LSD and cultivated an interest in Satanism". I tracked down the reference, to these statements in Philip Carlo's "The Night Stalker: The Life and Crimes of Richard Ramirez", (pg. 220);
"High, he'd go out to the desert at night and hunt by the light of the moon, imagining he was in touch with Satan, that Satan was communicating with him".
"The closer he drew toward Satan, the more estranged he became from society, as well as his parents. Richard began to conceive of Satan as a friend, an ally he could be himself with, share his inner thoughts with, and not be judged by".
That's it, that's all Carlo tells us there, about Ramirez' juvenile "interest in Satanism". The Satan of popular culture and mythology wouldn't make a very positive 'imaginary friend', that's true, and if this is all there was to the 'satanism' of his interest, perhaps we can assume that he possessed only the superficial and typically juvenile conceptions of satan and satanism portrayed in pop culture entertainments like "The Exorcist" and "The Omen", perhaps fleshing that out with fantasies from his own imagination and his imaginary personal relationship with a fallen angel.
He might have picked up a copy of Anton LeVay's "Satanic Bible" at some point, they were certainly cheap and easy to find. Personally, I don't find anything espoused by LeVay in his Bibles (1&2) to be admirable or inspiring - but his Bible is far from being some kind of step-by-step guide to becoming a homicidal maniac, either.
There's not much more, in that wikipedia article, to justify the media hype of Richard Ramirez as a "satanic" serial killer. It sounds like he had an obsession with forcing some victims to "swear on Satan" as a proof of their honesty, rather than the archetypal "swearing on the Christian Bible". Wooppee! That's really "evil", I suppose. (?)
But, this type of "satanist" is the one we were most concerned about, when I was helping local Integrated Intelligence Unit detectives (EPD and RCMP) with their investigations into allegations about supposed "satanic and occult crimes", locally, regionally and nationally, circa 1988-1992.
Self-styled, frequently teenaged "satanists", whose understanding of that concept was limited to; "evil people doing evil things in service to some evil entity or theology" and largely making it up as they went along. Almost anything could be made to fit into such simplistic concepts, so the Self-Styled might be capable of imagining a "satanic" rationalization for...just about anything.
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hope
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Post by hope on Nov 28, 2020 22:00:23 GMT -6
Thanks for posting the report to go along with the denim shirt. Too bad we do not know the results of that testing.
Here is a post of Josh's from 2009:
Unfortunately, he did not go into more detail. Such as, was unknown DNA uploaded into CODIS and no matches were found in the database? Or DNA from POI's were collected and compared to DNA from the crime scene? I know a lot has happened since that post was made & the DNA they were trying to "match" could have very well been Justin's. Just trying to get a feel for what type of testing has been done based on what we know. Perhaps we can try to create a timeline of sorts.
Do you know of any other reports attributed to Frazier? I don't believe I have seen his name anywhere else.
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Post by kmik on Nov 28, 2020 21:11:43 GMT -6
From what I found Doyle Frazier (the detective who submitted the evidence in the report) worked at the PCSO from 1991-2005 and Dmac said, "The first signature on the Chain of Evidence section is dated 3-25-04, the last being 2009" so I would think this evidence was probably submitted in 2004 since that is the first date on the evidence report and Frazier retired the next year.
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Post by kmik on Nov 28, 2020 20:32:15 GMT -6
We posted at the same time so I deleted some of my post but left the report up. The denim shirt had to have been tested. Dmac just hasn't found the results (remember he's only working off of Mike and Dougs files).
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hope
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Post by hope on Nov 28, 2020 20:30:55 GMT -6
Correction to my previous post, it appears the denim shirt was indeed sent for DNA testing according to an October 21, 2020 post by 28:
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hope
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Post by hope on Nov 28, 2020 19:51:17 GMT -6
I had initially missed that about Dee as well. I only caught it when I was re-reading everything.
Those are some good thoughts regarding the DNA. It had never crossed my mind that perhaps they have already matched all the DNA evidence they have. I hope that is not the case but it is definitely possible. That would explain the way the case seems to have gone from "hot" to "cold". And you are right, it sounds like they were expecting some results from that September evidence that didn't pan out the way they were hoping. Good catch. I wonder what that could have been. If there is DNA from an unknown individual it would certainly make sense to submit that for the genetic genealogy instead of spending endless amounts of time on re-interviewing, going through old case files, etc. So perhaps there isn't any additional DNA to match. But then there is still the blue denim shirt which as far as we know they do not have results from. Since they believe it was left by the suspect it should be an obvious choice for testing.
Over time I have been saving anything I find regarding DNA and evidence. I am going to take a look through that and see what else we can find.
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Post by kmik on Nov 28, 2020 17:23:59 GMT -6
Thanks for that post Hope. I guess I completely missed the fact that Dee submitted his DNA in 2013. Here are a few things all this leads me to believe:
*PCSO obtained DNA from many POI's over the years (including Marilyn, Dee, Marty) that was never a match to DNA from the scene.
*Around 2014/15 Marilyn willingly submitted her DNA for testing which led to the DNA match being linked to Justin but leaving DNA from a female that has since been matched to Tina (or had already been matched to Tina but never revealed).
OR:
*PCSO has DNA that has never been matched to anyone.
Doesn't it seem that they have already matched the DNA that they have? If not then surely (like you pointed out) they would have sent it off for the genetic genealogy testing that was so popular around 2018 when all those PCSO news articles were being written and Mike was headed off to VIDOCQ. Or is it possible that they did send it off and found out it was Tina's which put a stop to the PCSO desiring to go any further? There is no way this case was as hot as it supposedly was in the summer of 2018 only to end up cold again 6 months later.
April 27, 2018 Plumas News
Maybe by September the evidence they were hoping to have was not what they were hoping for?
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hope
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Post by hope on Nov 28, 2020 14:41:32 GMT -6
I know this is posted elsewhere on the forum, however, I thought it could use it's own thread. It is important to remember at the time of this letter Tina was still missing. I find it strange her uncle took the time to write such a letter and didn't use the opportunity to also beg the public to come forward with any information that may help bring poor Tina home.
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hope
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Post by hope on Nov 28, 2020 14:10:10 GMT -6
A couple more items related to karis & kmik's previous posts.
These are snippets from a post made on keddie28's forum and Facebook page on September 21, 2020. He is discussing information obtained from Gamberg's files. 28 states he has scanned 300 pages of these files:
The information below is from police reports Gamberg made during his time as special investigator on the Keddie case:
So, in addition to Marilyn's DNA, they were also attempting to extract DNA from the letters Marty sent Marilyn and collected DNA from Princess's daughter in hope of a familial match to Bo. (Although I am not sure what that bit about her daughter not being Bo's means exactly....a joke perhaps? Also, wouldn't Princess's DNA, instead of her daughters, be a closer match to Bo?)
A little further down in the same post is a follow up regarding Marty's DNA:
According to a police report they were successful in retrieving Marty's DNA from the letters. No mention of whether it was matched to the DNA found at the scene. However, you would think we would have heard about it if his DNA was a match. They have already publicly named Marty & Bo as the main suspects, including in the Feather River Bulletin, People Magazine, and the People Magazine Investigates show aired on Investigation Discovery. I am going to take a guess that Marty's DNA was not a match.
He also mentions, a secondary female DNA hit found on some of the electrical cords and in a blood sample. In the past, there has been mention of Tina collecting electrical cords from the girls bedroom that night. This was mentioned in the cabin tour outtake video from Josh's documentary.
Sheila also had this to say in an old forum chat:
I had assumed PCSO have Tina's DNA on file and matched it to those electrical cords, hence the report Sheila is referring to. This may be incorrect since in his post 28 mentions Gamberg "began a search to see if DNA was ever attempted or extracted from her skeletal remains". I assume he is referring to Tina's remains? The report also suggests running Marilyn's DNA again. No follow up on that is posted. However, that report was from 2014 or 2015. As kmik & karis already pointed out, Marilyn stated in a 2016 post that she had given a sample of her DNA the previous year. She was then interviewed by the FBI in 2016.
We know Marilyn voluntarily gave a DNA sample which was run at least once and not matched to any evidence at the scene.
And finally, from the same September 21st post on keddie28, Dee Lake is discussed:
Dee Lake also submitted a DNA sample. I think it is safe to assume his DNA was also not a match, otherwise he would have been arrested.
Based on that one post alone we learn PCSO does indeed have suspect DNA on file and they also obtained DNA samples on Marty, Marilyn, Bo (familial from Princess), and Dee. It appears not one of the 4 main suspects DNA could be matched to the DNA from the crime scene. So, who exactly was in the cabin that night???
Parabon Labs has helped solve nearly 100 cold cases through genetic genealogy. If PCSO would upload their unknown suspects DNA into Parabons database this case can be solved too. The victims and their families deserve true justice.
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Post by Morgana on Nov 28, 2020 13:28:52 GMT -6
Thanks Tom,
I don't think the murders were a drug deal gone wrong. I do keep in mind drug trafficking was NOT on the scale it is today or even the 80s back then. I think trafficking, from things I've read...and so much comes together in these cases, was expanding. I question if Sebring wasn't a target here. And I understand you think possibly he was but for a different reason. I'll phrase it this way. I think Sebring international was to be involved in drug trafficking. Maybe that's why Jay was taken out. He didn't want to play along. Perhaps there is more to his beginnings and help he got. Come a day you need to do "them" a favour in return.
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jack
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Post by jack on Nov 28, 2020 10:25:51 GMT -6
Oh, please. The first, most important, and most obvious difference between OJ and say, Bobby Beausoleil is, in the "case" against Bobby B, the prosecution submitted NO evidence of any kind, except that Bobby was arrested sleeping in Hinman's car, and the fact they could prove he had been in Gary's house recently. But all that proves is, Bobby knew Gary, which everybody already knew. Beyond that, they presented "witnesses" whose testimony against Bobby is flat contradicted by the actual evidence. In the OJ case, there is a mountain of evidence. Actual evidence. His blood found at the scene, corroborated by a fresh cut on his finger (the exact same kind of cut totally missing from the hands of Atkins, Watson, and Krenwinkel.) The victims' blood on HIS clothing, in HIS car, etc. His bloody shoeprints found at the scene. Damning testimony by several witnesses (the witness who say him driving away from the scene right after the murders was disqualified on a technicality.) And a WELL-documented, perfectly ordinary, everyday motive. The only "mystery" is, why it didn't happen sooner. I know, I knoooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwww, ALL the evidence against OJ (and Oswald) was completely and entirely "manufactured" by the LAPD and Marcia Clark blah, blah, blah. But even if such a thing were "true," that's COMPLETELY different from the "cases" we're focusing on. Yeah, OJ's lawyers have told a lot of horseshit stories about how "innocent" their client is. That's not the same thing as convicting people like Bobby B and Berkowitz on no evidence of any kind. "Don't you think it's kind of fishy that ALL the evidence points DIRECTLY at my client?" No. I don't. But it's the only "defense" they could put up. Even after spending umpteen million dollars. This website and podcast are NOT, not, not, not, NOT, about Bigfoot, UFOs, "microchips in vaccines," Lizard Alien People, the Bermuda Triangles, or just any and every kooky conspiracy theory. It's about reexaming REAL murder cases by looking at the REAL evidence, police reports, autopsy reports, etc. I have enough nuts to deal with as it is. You asked me if I thought Simpson was innocent (I guess you have to ignore the acquittal by jury to even ask such a stupid question). Sorry I riled you up Professor but I thought you wanted an answer to your question. And everything you state as fact in the Simpson case was debunked right before your eyes during the long and boring trial. |
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Post by Admin Horan on Nov 28, 2020 10:09:36 GMT -6
I can't find ANY evidence that Jay ever SOLD drugs, let alone bought large quantities at one time. Only that he bought small quantities, and gave [most of it] away, in exchange for Hollyweird gossip. Even the night of the murders, he left the cocaine IN HIS CAR. The only drugs in the house were pot and MDA, and the MDA capsules were all in Abigail and Voytek's room. I think a lot of people speculate that Robert Evans BOUGHT kilos at a throw FROM Jay, but I don't see any evidence of that. I'm sure Robert bought from the SAME people as Jay, but not FROM Jay. I just don't buy the "drug deal gone wrong" motive at all. The only person asking to get killed over "drug deals gone wrong" was TEX. Not any of the victims. Possible? Sure. Evidence? None. Not so far, at least.
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Post by Admin Horan on Nov 28, 2020 10:02:03 GMT -6
Oh, please. The first, most important, and most obvious difference between OJ and say, Bobby Beausoleil is, in the "case" against Bobby B, the prosecution submitted NO evidence of any kind, except that Bobby was arrested sleeping in Hinman's car, and the fact they could prove he had been in Gary's house recently. But all that proves is, Bobby knew Gary, which everybody already knew. Beyond that, they presented "witnesses" whose testimony against Bobby is flat contradicted by the actual evidence.
In the OJ case, there is a mountain of evidence. Actual evidence. His blood found at the scene, corroborated by a fresh cut on his finger (the exact same kind of cut totally missing from the hands of Atkins, Watson, and Krenwinkel.) The victims' blood on HIS clothing, in HIS car, etc. His bloody shoeprints found at the scene. Damning testimony by several witnesses (the witness who say him driving away from the scene right after the murders was disqualified on a technicality.) And a WELL-documented, perfectly ordinary, everyday motive. The only "mystery" is, why it didn't happen sooner.
I know, I knoooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwww, ALL the evidence against OJ (and Oswald) was completely and entirely "manufactured" by the LAPD and Marcia Clark blah, blah, blah. But even if such a thing were "true," that's COMPLETELY different from the "cases" we're focusing on.
Yeah, OJ's lawyers have told a lot of horseshit stories about how "innocent" their client is. That's not the same thing as convicting people like Bobby B and Berkowitz on no evidence of any kind. "Don't you think it's kind of fishy that ALL the evidence points DIRECTLY at my client?" No. I don't. But it's the only "defense" they could put up. Even after spending umpteen million dollars.
This website and podcast are NOT, not, not, not, NOT, about Bigfoot, UFOs, "microchips in vaccines," Lizard Alien People, the Bermuda Triangles, or just any and every kooky conspiracy theory. It's about reexaming REAL murder cases by looking at the REAL evidence, police reports, autopsy reports, etc. I have enough nuts to deal with as it is.
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