Post by Admin Horan on Oct 5, 2020 15:12:35 GMT -6
Good God!
FWIW, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church was the forerunner of the neo-Calvinist Presbyterian Church in America. The only difference between them is narrow hair-splitting over organization, representation, and overseas mission work. Otherwise, their theology is identical--neo-Calvinist, with an orthodox emphasis on "election" as discussed in other threads relating to Arlis Perry.
"When a man lies, he murders some part of the world." —Paul Gerhardt
Glenna, in her own words, talking about her friendship with Sue which Sheila must have forgotten about. What Glenna said about Sue and Marty and Bo's friendship or lack of.
This case reminds me of something my mother used to repeat: "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive". So true in this case.
Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: marty and marilyn’s relation to the sharps
there wasn't any theing between marty and sue....she detested him....i know he tried to get her to go out with bo several times but think it was through marilyn doing the asking......all of whitch she declinded....sue and marilyn knew each other they wern't the best of friends but spoke to each other when the opertunity was such ....don't think jonny or sheila went over to marty house any....know tina was friends with juston and went over ther sometimes to play with him....the younger boys maybe sometimes.....
Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:15 am Post subject: marty and marilyn’s relation to the sharps
i don''t ever remember marty going over to sues house......i know a couple of times when i was down at sues , and i had somthing to ask obout our class or just to say hello, she and i went over to see marilyn ...and marty could have been there. Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:08 am Post subject: soooo why so quiet ya all
I don't know when sammy saw the boys at ganser park....i do kmow that sue the whole family and dana was at my house until six pm...they had to have ask if dana could spend the night early in the day because i knew he was to spend the night with jonny ...know they had been at my house for a while before sue left......richard and walter had ask me if they could spend the night also....and i had told them yes.....for some reason richard and walter desided not to go.....sue left my house at six and it was still light out side....i was standing on the porch saying good bye...i watched ALL of them get in the car including dana and drive away....it has always seemed odd to me....there had been no mention of the kids going to a party at okland camp ...and i think sue would have said something about it.....i wouldn't have told my kids they could spend the night if i knew they would be going to okland camp....and i can't see sue leting them go either....i'm not saying they did or didn't go...i just can't understand when and where the boys leave their mother...i thought they all went back to keddie......if this had been planed by the boys then i would have known about it.....why did the boys go all the way back to keddie.... when or if sue would have let them go]....doesn't make sence to me......
Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: blueskyes
frist, to the new people that have joined this site....i am richards mother...my family and sues were very, very close....as close to being family as can get...we spent 3/4s of our time together.....and when we wasn't together we knew pretty much what each other family was doing......
Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: sooooo why so quiet ya all
there will be no war words with me...i will not arugue about anything i know nothing about.....all i can say is....i met sue shortly after she moved here...her family and mine became very close...we spent a LOT of time together until the muders happened........i probely knew them better than any one else on this board.....all during this time i was around them, i never ever heard are saw any connection to jonny [or dana] having any thing to do with drugs in any way....i also knew sue wouldn't have stood for it...ofcourse parents doesn't always know every thing....but friends usually do, and richard and laronda were jonny and shealeys best friends...and they would of told me ore sue...dana i didn't know that well but he was around a lot of times.
if by chance it did happen ...then why with marty...marty didn't like jonny, hated him as merilyn has put it,..so i'm sure they didn't hang around together.....so when did the boys have the chance to steal their drugs???
as far as tina being out side or even at a friends....i knew sue well enough, that she would not have let her are the younger boys wander around after dark.....and at this time of year. it gets dark early...just my opion
when the men came from sack.or so they told me...to my house to quesstion me ...was after they had taken justen away...i ask them what justen had told them....they replied with ' he thought he was having a dream about the love.boat......that they couldn't get him hipmotised deep enough to get much out of him....i think thats a bunch of bunk...he knew who did it and they messed his mind up when they hipmatised him
i think it should be done again but by some one who knows what they are doing....
i don't think tina was molested before the murders,.....but i do think she was taken for that reason......i don't think marty went to reno at all. but think they may have taken her to fether falls that day and left her and maybe bo there...one reason, you donn't get high like he was at a hospital....
Fri May 05, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: catching up
gypsey2 if you remember right jim had went woodcuting with marty a couple of times privious to the murders...i think that may have been the reason of hm going out to your house that morning....i don't know if it was before or after we knew about the murders.....they didn't go wood cuting ......when he got home he told me that there were cop cars all around sues house....that marty was outside burning leaves and there was a pair of men shoes in the fire....i don't know if they were justens or not
Fri May 05, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: catching up
gypsey2 if you remember right jim had went woodcuting with marty a couple of times privious to the murders...i think that may have been the reason of hm going out to your house that morning....i don't know if it was before or after we knew about the murders.....they didn't go wood cuting ......when he got home he told me that there were cop cars all around sues house....that marty was outside burning leaves and there was a pair of men shoes in the fire....i don't know if they were justens or not
Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: meeks and sharps
ii can't see whaere the sharps were so close to your family.....i know tina was friends with justen...and she lilke you and would share things with you.....but sue...she didn't like marty or bo...she would have never went out with bo......she would have never been friends with them....with you, yes maybe on speaking terms..but i can't see her going over to your house spending a lot of time there
that day, sue and the family had spent the whole day at my house.........dania was there also, not sure of justen......she left the house a 6 in the evening, i remember loking at the c'lock....you know it's funny,,,,usually when she left my house , it was, see you tomorrow and i usually just stayed in the house...for some unbknown reason when she was going down the stepts the thought crossed my mind that i did say goood by to her...i got up and went out on the pourch and told her good by, watchd all of them get in the car and drive away.....strange...that was the last time i saw my good friend
that day, sue and the family had spent the whole day at my house.........dania was there also, not sure of justen......she left the house a 6 in the evening, i remember loking at the c'lock....you know it's funny,,,,usually when she left my house , it was, see you tomorrow and i usually just stayed in the house...for some unbknown reason when she was going down the stepts the thought crossed my mind that i did say goood by to her...i got up and went out on the pourch and told her good by, watchd all of them get in the car and drive away.....strange...that was the last time i saw my good friend
Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: what I know
the next morning, i got a call from laronda [she stayed out at keddie with a friend, suie, who lived down the hill from sues house] she said something is wrong at sues house, there are cops all over. i tried to call sue but no one answed the phone....i called marlyn...she told me that sue . jonny and daina were dead and tina was missing....i don't remember how i felt...i don't think my mind could coupe with it...or acepted wht she was saying. remembered she sounded up set....i ask her if she wanted to come to town....she said yes, that she was afraid to stay out there so wade and i went out and picked her up
Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:24 am Post subject: justin and the composite sketches
about blood on sues shoes........she wasn't waring shoes....there was bloody footprints ....if so sue had to have been killed after the boys.........sassy told me this after she had been down to the police station and had went through sues room that has all the evdince in it....
I have been told there iis a police report, that there was bloody combat boot prints in the caben......this has been brought up before....some one made the statment,...a lot of men wore boots...logers, said several others, don't remember what....so they checked into it.... found out that the service isused at that time were diff from other boots, something to do with the soles i think......does any of the older people on here remember?
Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: just a suggestion
don't think so ...think they were bare foot prints....police said they were sues...i thought they may have been tinas....
Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: where are we
your wrong, sue had been ask several times to go out with bo,....she told me that herself...she didn't like him so refused
when richard told me about the guy in jail.....who was with marty and bo..and someone in army clothes...we figured it was proberlyl a army buddy........we all talked about that on the board and the blooby boot prints.....when some one came up with maybe who ever it was mite be in the resevers [national guard] dee was the frist one that came to my mind ...
How quickly Glenna threw Dee Lake under the Bus.
Dee Lake: " I would vouch for Wade Meeks till the day I die"
I want to make it clear that I don't know who the killer(s) are but its been clear for years that the Meeks were trying to convince everyone that Marty was involved. The Meeks were trying to cover something. My question is why were they doing this? To keep the suspicion off of Richard (the father of Sheila's baby) or Wade (because he was living with a 30 year old woman) or Phillip (because he was their cousin)? What was their reason for doing this??
I can't quit shaking my head in disbelief that Sheila would write down a list of Johnny, Sue, and Tina's friends and include Marty and Bo! On all 3 lists!!! That just blows my mind.
Serial killer J.R. Robinson was Presbyterian as well. This guy was a piece of work, I read a book about him years ago. He took church money to fund all kinds of illegal businesses, like a "woman's shelter" where he picked a couple of his victims......"His neighbors knew J.R. as a successful businessman and entrepreneur, always talking of new ventures. He was a neighborhood activist, an officer of the residents’ association, and chairman of its rules committee. He was also a founding elder of the nearby Presbyterian Church."
There was another synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh exactly six month before the John Earnest shooting in which Robert Gregory Bowers shot 11 people one was a Mr. Rabinowitz who was a UPMC Pittsburgh surgeon.
Another Presbyterian killer......."Yet, this attack at the Chabad of Poway synagogue in California stirred particular interest and questions among Christians since the suspect, 19-year-old John Earnest, was reported to belong to a Presbyterian church. In fact, he was apparently a member of a nearby congregation in my own denomination, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC"
Oooooooohhhh, I suggest that poor Nancy's allegations are worth looking into. And will BE looked into. Relentlessly. But prima fascie, they should NOT be relied upon as any kind of evidence in and of themselves. Remember, the people we're after engage in relentless DISinformation in order to discredit their critics.
But truth will out.
"When a man lies, he murders some part of the world." —Paul Gerhardt
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh, we're going to talk about Access Graphics and kiddie porn. For now, let's talk about Fleet II attaching himself to the Ramseys like a barnacle, then throwing them overboard. IFYKWIM.
Specifically, Fleet III is K Street's Navy salesman in the Senate. It would seem he was groomed for that from an early age. You don't suddenly decide to go to those schools on a whim. It takes years to plan that path, and years to advance along it. Fleet III started on that path not long after JonBenet died. Was Burke supposed to be Fleet III? The murder of JBR wasn't done just for kicks. If these people are part of a cult, then her sacrifice was intended to increase someone's power. Or block someone's power. Whose?
I made a big deal on the podcast (and will again) about the Arlis Perry murder being BOTH a sex magick ritual, AND a simultaneous sacrificial murder. If I understand it correctly, Crowleyism teaches that the best place to perform a sex magick ritual is on the site of violent death, as much and as violent as possible. Crowley suggested a battlefield would be perfect. Not only a LOT of pain and death, but most of the victims would be considered more or less virtuous. That is, a battlefield is not like a place of execution, where those killed are criminals or evildoers. The more death, the more pain and torture, the more INNOCENT, the better. And the sooner after the battle, the better, before the energy drains away.
Suppose you don't have a "battlefield" handy? You have to create one. Like at Cielo Drive? It seems possible that Altobelli and Melcher were literally rushing to reoccupy the house before the blood dried. And they were apparently in a sexual relationship. And both of them were HUNGRY for more Hollyweird power in their careers. The victims died slowly, horribly, and extremely violently. Crowley would surely certify the site as sex-magick ready.
At the Perry murder scene, which is undoubtedly not only Satanic, but specifically, Crowleyesque, we find blood and semen in ritualistic locations. This was not "only" a human sacrifice. It was ALSO A SEX MAGICK RITUAL. An altar candle was used to violate Arliss. (There was no definite sign of "regular" rape.) The murder provides the violent death; the Church location provides the Innocence. I still wonder if Arlis's marriage had been consummated.
At the JonBenet scene, there was blood and--what??? The autopsy revealed the presence of a fluid consistent with semen or saliva all over her thigh/loin area, which, along with the blood, had been "wiped off" with a DARK colored cloth. Her original panties, and that cloths, were never found. Where did they go? You don't have to be a "cult" expert to know that a black cloth soaked in the blood of a child and the semen of the men who raped and tortured her to death sounds like just the thing to bring to a Black Mass. And "they" did it on FUCKING CHRISTMAS DAY. You've seen The Wicker Man, right? What day of the year is the sacrificial Fool sacrificed, again?
The pathologist never actually got around to saying exactly WHY the fluid "wasn't" semen, and was "probably" saliva. In 1996, the most definitive test was for signs of a protein that causes the semen to change viscosity over time. The pathologist was not able to recover enough dried fluid in order to perform any such conclusive test one way or the other. And that's a hell of a lot of "saliva." So, it COULD have been semen. (One DNA expert argues that the most recent DNA test showed the DNA of TWO or more men.) And bear in mind, one ME bent over backwards to avoid seeing ANY evidence of PRIOR sexual abuse, and tried and tried to downplay the "rape" angle of the case. Another ME was far more willing to state it HAD occurred. In ANY case, there was no doubt JBR had been brutally violated. A splinter of varnished wood was found inside her vaginal tract. We have no idea what the posture of her little body was, because the body was moved by her "father." It IS funny that her panites were gone, but not her pajama pants. Had she and her PJ pants been laid out in the same pattern as Arlis? We'll never know. But "somebody" dressed her in new panties (that only a parent would have been able to find) and put her PJ pants back on. My point is, her panties (and the cloth used to clean her up) were gone, but not the pants. And her death was PROLONGED with a garotte.
Supposedly, there were drops of blood from an unidentifiable "male" on the NEW panties. How did the "killer" cut himself, when no sharp weapons were used on the victim? The "save the Ramseys at all costs" team purport that this blood came from a cut from the glass in the broken basement window, but there was an intact spider web just outside the window, and NO other blood spots anywhere else in the basement. Did the sacrificers prick themselves to get some of their own blood to mix with JBR's blood? BUT--"Satanic" or not--JBR's torture, rape, and murder were "ritualistic" by any forensic definition of the word.
And the two PRIME suspects were men (with ambitious wives) hungry for all the power they could get. And got. Was this some kind of weird "spirit marriage" between JBR (a "shakhti") and Fleet III? If that sounds crazy, let me direct you to what we KNOW about this crime. You pick a saner motive.
Like I said, Access Graphics will come up again...
Last Edit: Oct 5, 2020 6:03:29 GMT -6 by Admin Horan
"When a man lies, he murders some part of the world." —Paul Gerhardt
Post by marionumber1 on Oct 4, 2020 22:00:38 GMT -6
You're right that we don't need to depend on Nancy Krebs's story. I just think it is important in that it is the first and so far only case of a victim directly accusing the Whites and Ramseys of sexual abuse, and provides valuable behind-the-scenes context of how this ring operated (John as the money man, Fleet Sr. as the apparent ringleader, the connections to Hollywood figures like Goldie Hawn and Aspen high society like W.T. Ray, etc.). Who might have been involved in any specific events that night is unclear, but I am confident placing John Ramsey and Fleet White Jr. in the thick of it at the very minimum.
The Whites keep their family business hush-hush. Like relatives of serial killers and other HIGH profile "witnesses," Russell Fleet White II has had his public records erased.
I wonder if the Krebs "family" knew Cameron. If they knew Gillies and her mother's family the Meyers, and if they lived in the area, they would have a pretty good idea who was living there. The population density of that whole region is close to zero.
When White II and his family moved to Boulder, he had no job, just income. He said he was looking for "business opportunities" in Boulder. Immediately, he and his family rrreeeaaalllly latched onto the Ramseys. Almost like leeches. Fleet III has a very, very impressive resume of his own. And he's only 31. He's like a Chelsea Clinton, but in Defense Contracting (K Street,) instead of Wall Street. I don't see how he did that without some pull from John Ramsey. Which explains his leeching onto John Ramsey the day his feet hit the ground in Boulder. (Or at least, Ramsey's other "friends.") Especially when the Whites are supposed to be enemies (now) of the Ramseys.
And of course, the Meyers and other ranch owners were always interested in prospectors of all sorts, including oil and gas.
I need to double-check, but I think Cathy Gillies was a local teenaged girl befriended by Cameron when Cameron stayed at the Barker Ranch. I have a hunch that's how Cathy became acquainted with Manson--through Cameron. There are too many coincidences between Cameron and Charlie for Cathy to lead Charlie to Barker Ranch by coincidence.
That would be very interesting if Gwen Krebs happened to know Marjorie Cameron. The fact that Cameron stayed at a ranch nearby combined with all the other connections to the Manson group does make it very likely that if Gwen knew Cappie Gillies, she knew Cameron also.
It does seem to me like John Ramsey was the money man of the pedophile group. Actually, Nancy Krebs talked about something like this, saying that "Uncle Johnny" (i.e. John Ramsey) was the one who set up front companies to launder proceeds from child pornography. I wouldn't even be surprised if Access Graphics was really being used for this purpose, with its massive $1 billion in revenue. Fleet Jr., like you say, doesn't seem to have had an actual job, just the financial backing of his father who actually held the purse strings. Indeed, I suspect that Fleet Sr. wielded his financial control to get Fleet Jr. to move to Boulder to be closer to him in Aspen, maybe for the purposes of this pedophile ring. I'll have to check my notes but I heard that some tabloid reporter managed to get ahold of a recording of Fleet Sr. and Jr. heatedly arguing over something after JonBenet's murder.
Fleet III's background is really fascinating indeed. That just goes to show the level of connections that this group had. I don't know if you've noticed, but his LinkedIn page has recently been taken down.
Post by marionumber1 on Oct 4, 2020 21:37:26 GMT -6
He is Macky Eugene Boykin, a former US Navy veteran in the Korean War deceased November 9, 1995. Not much is public about him, including the details of his conviction for molesting Nancy, but he served a very light sentence after having most of the charges dropped in a plea agreement, and his family members continue to defend him by claiming that Nancy came on to him (the classic excuse ). I have been trying to dig up the records on his Inyo County case and will update people with that.
I agree Getem but it does appear to be people that were supposedly friends of the victims. Unbelievable that Glenna Meeks name is absent from Sue's list but Marty and BO made all 3. If it is a "friend list", and I feel like it is, then it is beyond obvious that the Meeks were absolutely influencing everyone to name Marty and Bo right down to Sheila.
I remember in an old post that Marilyn told Glenna that she (Glenna) was the one who first pointed the finger at Marty and she said on Dmac's forum in 2017 that she thought she was influenced by the people she was around at the time - and I think there's gonna end up being a lot of truth to that. I can go down the list and connect all these people saying it was Marty back to the Meeks or Marilyn. No need to worry about a police cover-up - heck the police were trying to sort out the cover up from with in. Oh my what a cluster
We always asked for Dmac to show us the cover-up and I think he just did - with the Meeks names all over it accusing Marty and bo
On 5-19-81 Sheila makes a list of Sue, Johnny and Tina's friends.
Sue Sharp 1. Randy Sharp
Randall Sharp, Sr. [no relation] dated Sue 3 times while she lived at Claremont. He had not seen her for over 1 year at time of 187. <Randall Sharp / Bradley>
2. Darel (lives in Keddie) I guess that would be Sue's current "friend", only he was away that weekend with his ex-wife. 3. Doug (llives in Keddie) Was that Doug Albin, whose print was found on the pack of cigarettes? 4.Les (lives in Keddie) 5. Joe Baze Sue saw him before darel 6. Nancy Harper Her Daughter and Tina accused Dan French of molesting them 7. Rosana - Jevoha witness (?) 8. Holly - Jevoha witness (?) 9. MARTY SMART 10.BO
Oh my, Sheila forgot Glenna Meeks but remembered Marty and Bo? She was suppose to be Sue's best friend. And i don't remember Nancy Harper on any report saying anything except to say her daughter didn't play with Tina after the incident. According to Sheila most of Sue's friends were men.
Tina Sharp
1. Michelle Harper 2. (?) Wheeler 3. Paula Seabolt 4. Pearl Seabolt 5. Justin and Casey Smart 6. Amy (lived in Keddie) 7. Karen Mackler 6. Shelley Barker (She posted on one of the sites about the case (i can't remember which one) and gave her mother's name as Shelly Barker. I will look that up 7. Ricky Bowman 8. Jimmy Boscoe 9. Eric and Lori Boscoe 10. MARTY 11. BO
Once again, Sheila doesn't have Walter or Laronda Meeks on this list. But she has Bo and Marty, Joel Lipsey said Tina was closer to the Meeks kids than anyone else.
Johnny Sharp
1. Richard Meeks 2. Walter Meeks 3. John Baze 4. Dana Wingate 5. Vernal 6. Susan Krois 7. Margaret Krois 8. MARTY 9.BO 10. Kim and Ken Moss 11. Mike Hamilton 12. Angus (lynch) Dave Figueiro
FIGUEIRO, DAVE (AKA - ANGUS LYNCH)
Friend of John & Dana, Swenson & Farris thought of him involved
<SHANKS>/<STOY>
MICKLEY, DAVID
Treated PDH [Plumas District Hosp] for cut hand 4/12/81 due to fight with friend - Lynch
<SHANKS>/<STOY
Sheila was interviewed in the days following the murders by DOJ: "....your mother didn't have any personal enemies that you know of? Sheila: "She never hurt anybody. " your brother? Sheila: "I don't know. I don't think he had any men enemies."
"
But a month later she writes down this list of names. She has forgotten her mothers "best friend" but remembered that all three had a common link to Marty and Bo. Really? She writes down a list of Tina's "little" friends and along with that she mentions 2 grown men?? No wonder the police could not solve this crime. Everyone in the Meeks "camp" had been trying to convince everyone that Marty was the killer. The cops were busy chasing those "campfire" stories. Now Sheila comes along listing those 2 names on all three lists. The cops had to have known she was being influenced by someone. How obvious.
There was a coverup in this case but it was not the police, DOJ, ect.
Post by Admin Horan on Oct 4, 2020 19:55:30 GMT -6
I wouldn't go betting any farms on the Krebs stuff. First and foremost, there is NOTHING about this case that requires looking for any "outsider" suspects. NOTHING rules out John, Patsy, and Fleet being responsible for the whole thing.
"Might" there be other possible suspects? Sure. The Easter Bunny "might" be a suspect. But there is no need for another suspect. ALL the actual evidence points directly at the Ramseys (with Fleet as an accomplice.) And even if it IS "possible" that JonBenet's original panites were removed at the scene of some crime OUTSIDE the Ramsey house, and left behind when JonBenet's body was carried back to her own house, that still doesn't require the presence of any "sex party."
Now, were the Ramseys and Whites involved in some kind of kiddie porn ring? We KNOW that. There have been convictions. We've seen the photos, for God's sake. But that doesn't mean we need to put any faith in any specific story poor Nancy Krebs told.
"When a man lies, he murders some part of the world." —Paul Gerhardt