hope
Full Member
Posts: 139
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Post by hope on Oct 18, 2020 19:17:07 GMT -6
Yes, I just came across an old post of hers a few days ago. I forget the lady's name but Meadow Valley sounds right. Marilyn said justin was taken into "protective custody". So I got the impression it was for his safety since they believed Justin had seen the killers and they may have seen him.
I also remember seeing the post Snoho mentions.
I will see if I can find those old posts, I've been looking around so many random places the past few days lol. Hopefully I can find them easily.
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Post by kmik on Oct 18, 2020 19:15:13 GMT -6
Yep and read the "Excellent Citizens Report" which says Vernal M. knows something - so it's possible Vernal told this to Carla. Didn't she deny this when the police questioned her?
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Post by snoho17 on Oct 18, 2020 19:13:23 GMT -6
What's funny is everyone taking mardes confession as indisputable evidence. All the investigators were supposedly on the take, yet the one person who should have had "copious" notes, chose not to take any? But what really did it for me... marde could have said he smothered tina, stabbed her, fed her to piranhas anything would have made me consider him (or counselor) telling the truth. But no, he claims to have killed her with a hammer. You don't bludgeon someone to death with a hammer on their torso. He was aware from the get go hammers had been used on the others heads, he had no way of knowing that Tina's skull would be found in tact. The only worth in this confession is to show he had no idea how Tina died.
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Post by kmik on Oct 18, 2020 19:08:21 GMT -6
And he could have because I do believe Doug T did everything he could to try and get him to talk. But Snoho don't you remember her saying about a week later (maybe after the funerals) he went to stay with "Joan" in Meadow Valley? Maybe this was supposed to be for his safety? Does anyone remember who this was or why he was staying there??
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Post by kmik on Oct 18, 2020 19:05:06 GMT -6
My thinking (worth nothing) is I don't believe anyone is working this case because if the FBI was actively working it then they would have already stopped dmac from doing what he's doing because they wouldn't want him to jeopardize the investigation - but if there's not an investigation then this is just a last ditch effort to get somebody to tell what they know before their name gets put out there - and hey nobody's talking so names and statements are popping up every few days.
Our former Police Chief told me that sometimes, when the police have nowhere else to go with a cold case, they might release information in the hope that someone comes forward. Look if DMAC knew Marilyn was sick a couple of years back (2018) then the police did too - so if they had her dna at the crime scene they would have scrambled around trying to get her in before she passed. It does not appear they did that. |
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Post by james1983 on Oct 18, 2020 18:29:35 GMT -6
Cameron was the Mengele of psychology. He probably learned his craft from the same source as well.
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Post by elantric on Oct 18, 2020 18:19:41 GMT -6
xdell.blogspot.com/2008/10/devils-in-slide-you-never-show-me-your.htmlThe Devil’s in the Slide: You Never Show Me Your Money (Oct 2009)
Mae Brussell raised a number of issues with respect to the Tate-LaBianca murders, some of which have been answered to various degrees of satisfaction since. When she first went on the air with the story in 1971, Ed Sanders had yet to publish The Family, and Vincent Bugliosi had yet to write Helter Skelter. She relied upon her own sense of history, the numerous newspaper reports she could find, a well-developed network of informers (among them law enforcement officials, political movers and shakers, researchers and the incarcerated), and some original flatfoot detective work instead. In this and in the next few posts, I’m going to highlight some of the major issues that she raises.
The first issue is rather obvious. Basically, it’s the simple question, “Who financed this?”
The question struck Mae as a basic one. In the JFK assassination she wanted to know where Lee Oswald got the money to do all the things he did. For example, when he defected, his plane ticket to the Soviet Union cost $1,400. But he worked at minimum wage jobs ($1.25/hr), and had about $200 in his bank account. No one admitted to giving or loaning him the money for the trip.
Likewise, Mae wondered how Manson foot the bill for everything. There were usually a number of people (in the forty to fifty range) hanging out with Manson at any given time at Spahn Ranch, and less at Barker Ranch. Mae noted that the slippies would have had numerous expenses, even if they bartered farm chores with the elderly George Spahn in exchange for crash space. She pointed out that no one there suffered from malnutrition. They had all sorts of drugs. There were lots of children running around too. As any parent can tell you, kids cost money. They require health care, food, clothing (lots of clothing, for they grow out of everything), supervision and so forth--and in the slippies’ case, the kids were also illicit drug consumers. They had a number of vehicles over this two-year odyssey, including a Fiat, VW minivans, a customized school bus, an old 1950s Ford (the car that they drove to the murders), a mini-fleet of dune buggies, and a Hostess snack cake truck. Cars require not just gas but maintenance. And because most, including Manson, were musicians, they also owned instruments and sound equipment. Moreover, they had a cache of weapons, which included a variety of knives, firearms, and, of course, Manson’s sword, along with field radios and other equipment that they stowed away for their Helter Skelter plans.
Geez. Radios, food, clothing, medical care, vehicles, maintenance, gas, weapons, childcare, drugs, electric guitars and so on. You have to wonder how they paid for all of this. But if you’re assuming that they must have stretched and spent every last dollar that they had, then you’d be in for a bit of a shock. They had money coming out the wazoo.
According to most sources, most reliably from Manson’s former lieutenant Paul Watkins, Charlie always had between $3,000-5,000 on him at any given time, with cash reserves n the neighborhood of $30-40k. Moreover, Manson was in a position to loan fairly large amounts of money to various people, among them a retired schoolteacher referred to only as Gina, who borrowed five grand to pay off the mortgage on her ranch.
Note too, we’re talking about 1969 dollars here. According to the government’s inflation calculator, Manson’s total cash (excluding the vehicles and all other forms of capital) was worth around a quarter of a million dollars in today’s money.
To some extent, we know that the slippies indeed extended themselves to save bucks when they could. Many of their friends in the Straight Satans, for example, were expert mechanics. People passing by Spahn Ranch during this time saw them earning a few dollars here and there making repairs for anyone willing to pay them. It’s quite likely that they serviced all of the “family’s” vehicles, perhaps in exchange for sex and other amenities.
The slippies also fed themselves through a curious practice they called ‘dumpster diving.’ They would wait for local supermarkets to throw away food that had not sold by its expiration date, and simply take it as soon as it hit the trash. After awhile, however, the employees of these stores, knowing that the women would come by and collect their refuse, made it easier for them by putting their unwanted items in boxes, so that the slippies could just come, take it, and haul it away. In perhaps one of the cruelest ironies of all, the Mansonites were especially fond of Gateway Supermarkets, the chain headed by Leno LaBianca.
Manson discouraged the seeking of medical care, saying, “Doctors are only good for curing the clap [gonorrhea].” So, they saved money by playing doctor amongst themselves. If you recall, when Manson slashed Gary Hinman’s ear, Mary Brunner sutured it with dental floss, per their routine. They also delivered their own children. Only in the rare case of an extremely difficult delivery did the women ever go to the hospital.
Still, most of the females had to see the doctor anyway. It would be an understatement to say that the Manson women often got the clap. It’s more like they got the thundering standing ovation.
As for the cars, most say that Manson really knew how to barter. For example, Dean Morehouse gifted him with a piano. Manson traded the piano for a VW minibus, which he in turn exchanged for the school bus. In other instances, he relied upon the generosity of followers and their families to donate vehicles and money. Then too, he appears to have become jointly involved with other outlaws in a car theft ring, which included a chop shop where they salvaged good working parts, and stripped the bodies in order to manufacture dune buggies.
We also know that they engaged in various criminal enterprises that could very well have contributed to their pot. In fact, when you take a good look at it, what we now call the “Manson Family” wasn’t so much a commune as it was a gathering of petty criminals. They trafficked drugs, for starters. Some of the women engaged in prostitution to raise money, especially in a pinch (they tried to get steady work as strippers, but the agency Manson’s former jailhouse friend, Bill Vance, hooked them up with thought they were too flat-chested, and wouldn’t book them until they got silicone implants). They also stole credit cards—lots and lots of credit cards. Back then, retailers had a harder time catching an identity thief than they do now. So there’s a possibility that this could explain a lot of their gas, restaurant bills, and other expenses.
Still, the credit cards couldn’t begin to explain away that amount of cash. After all, ATMs wouldn’t appear for another decade. And even if they existed during the time, you couldn’t get forty grand out of them very quickly, or without getting noticed. Anyone receiving their monthly statement should have immediately recognize an unauthorized charge. And while the “family” might have profited enormously from bartering, that system of exchange wouldn’t produce much in the way of folding money. While the underground economy of penny-ante organized crime could account for a large cash reserve, it would also have to change our perspective of the Mansonites from their typical depiction as communal idlers who whiled away their days in drug binges and sex orgies to a an industrious criminal enterprise.
Since we know they had enough free time to practice and perform their music, chase record deals, make a few home movies (and one feature-length documentary), drop copious amounts of acid and other hallucinogens, network among the stars, and engage in orgiastic sex, if they actually could produce that kind of money through any business, legal or otherwise, then I, for one, would have to tip my hat to them for having that kind of stamina.
On the other hand, we still have to wonder how they managed to keep up an operation of this scale for over a year without getting caught by authorities. Could officials--how can we put this—simply have turned a blind eye to Manson’s shenanigans? Could they have done so willingly? How could the cops not have seen an operation that big in the middle of the desert, with nothing to camouflage it?
Charles Manson NOW - Marlin Marynick
docshare03.docshare.tips/files/16740/167404498.pdf
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Post by james1983 on Oct 18, 2020 18:17:18 GMT -6
"LBGTQ" activist and NAMBLA spokesman Harry Hay use to play the organ at OTO rituals. The gay pride parades and organizations like NAMBLA went hand in hand in the 70s-the early 90s before people started reporting on what those organizations really were. In reality it's one of the goals of gay rights to lower the age of consent, it always has been. In the 70s and 80s young teenagers were always a part of the gay scene in New York, California, Chicago etc. the police turned a blind eye to most of the activity, that's when people like John Paul Ranieri use to hustle at the stone wall inn at 14 years old, and cops could care less.
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Post by elantric on Oct 18, 2020 18:16:55 GMT -6
Soooooooo...what ur saying is, "if" the CIA wanted to plant a story in a cryptofascist (sorry. I get all twitterpated when the name Castro comes up.) suburban "news" paper on any topic for any reason, someone in the Agency could most likely recommend Ed Butler and his publisher Frawley. You don't say...You don't say. And yes, this would have been written BEFORE October 1st. Loooooong before Sadie Mae Glutz started tooting Charlie's horn vis-a-vis the Sybil Brand Institutionalized (see what I mean?) in November. It no doubt hit the streets before October. Plenty of time for Susan--who read every scrap of newspaper and magazine and sat glued in front of the TV with a radio on each ear waiting for the next bulletin concerning the Tate murders, to read and hear about it. Remember, this murder happened to her idol. She was one of the very first members of the Sharon Tate Cult. This wasn't just "some" murder that she glanced at in the paper once or twice. She was at least as obsessed with the murder of Sharon Tate as we are.
Hypothesis #7—A joint task force consisting of the FBI, CIA and possibly others within American Intelligence groomed Charles Manson and Charles Watson to embark upon a series of assassinations to discredit both African Americans and the youth of the countercultural left, i.e. the hippies.Argument for: Mae Brussell, whose research into the Manson case developed into this hypothesis, gave a number of tantalizing details suggesting the involvement of US Intel in the development of both Watson and Manson, and in positioning them to play the roles they were bound to play.She primarily focused on two aspects of the Helter Skelter murders, namely the political/legal connections and the financial backing. The former included a number of high-profile people extending back to Manson’s brief stint at Boys Town. The latter featured questions regarding the mechanics of the operation itself, and who might have paid for it. (Details about the money issue here.)Manson’s connection to various financial backers—among them Washington socialite Charlene Cafritz, Sandra Good and Dennis Wilson—gives us a glimpse of Mae’s concerns. The connections’ true importance lay beyond the mere channeling of funds to establishing the dominant narrative that would become the Manson legend. This story arc began with the ex-con hippie guru who had, in the matter of a few years, mastered the art of brainwashing, The tale also entails the epitome of the counterculture, a hippie commune whose hedonism extended far beyond sex, drugs and rock & roll to include orgiastic murder and mayhem.If the point were to discredit the counterculture, and the New Left (as the FBI and CIA referred to it) that it had attached itself to, then it would be paramount to (a) set Charlie up as the focal point of a stereotypical (at least to the casual observer) commune; and (b) establish some kind of bonafides with youth culture, a more challenging task given Manson’s advanced age (more than double that of slippies Dianne Lake and Ruth Ann Morehouse). Manson’s musicianship coud have solved both problems. In combination with his patented prison spiel laced with Scientology and other occult influences, Manson's looming stardom lured women, and some men, into a growing fold of admirers, who regarded Manson as Christ reincarnate, a savior seasoned by a hard, difficult life, but who still had a tender, sensitive side. Secondly, music became Charlie’s main entryway into the counterculture, in the end solidly connecting his legacy with two of the most iconic bands of their time.It’s evident in the Beach Boys’ recording of “Cease to Exist” (or “Never Learn not to Love”) that the group put a solid effort into realizing Manson’s work in a mainstream venue. Moreover, they actively promoted the song on television.Figure 1. The Beach Boys on The Mike Douglas ShowCharlie had not only Dennis Wilson and the other Beach Boys within his stable of contacts, but legitimate and highly esteemed music managers, executives and producers, among them Phil Kaufman, Gregg Jacobson, and Terry Melcher. While these connections are well known and documented, Manson's connections to some celebrities (e.g. Angela Lansbury**) are documented but relatively obscure. Some (e.g. Nancy Sinatra) are claimed by Manson, but denied by others. A number of relationships (e.g. Cass Elliot) are plausible, but rumored from many different sides. But even if only a fraction of the rumored acquaintanceships were true, then one is still left with a dazzling array of stars who somehow made their way into Manson’s orbit.“Cease to Exist” established Manson as a somewhat legitimate part of the music scene, and his relationship to the Beach Boys came under considerable scrutiny in the years following the murders. But at the time of the trial, Bugliosi, Stephen Kay and the rest of the prosecution team developed a more intimate connection between Manson and the counterculture’s rock & roll soundtrack.The Beatles song “Helter Skelter,” a metaphorical reference to the playground ride known to Americans as a ‘slide,’ began to dominate discussions of Manson. According to most sources, Charlie used the title of that track to describe what he believed, due to his OTO and Process influences, to be an imminent race war.** But the links between Manson’s beliefs allegedly went far beyond that one song, incorporating as they did virtually the entire White Album, and spilling into the group’s previous work and personal history.Basing a motive on bizarre interpretations of Beatle lyrics might have been laughable in 1968. But the prosecution caught a tremendous break. During the fall of 1969, after the murders but before the arrests, the international public received a crash course, as it were, in the misinterpretation of Beatles’ lyrics.  The Paul-Is-Dead (PSYOP) rumor, prominent news at the time, demonstrated how easily intelligent, psychologically normal people could come to the most outlandish understandings based on innuendo and imagination. More to the point, the whole incident depicted rock and roll, the music of the counterculture, as somewhat ghoulish, or unwholesome. By the time the Manson trials commenced, the songs of the Fab Four began to seem even darker, as prosecutors and fans drew their own parallels between the “family” and the White Album.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_is_deadMore generally, the press constantly referred to the Mansonites as hippies, despite the group’s insistence that they weren’t. They despised hippies, and referred to themselves as ‘slippies,’ for they had slipped off the mainstream of society. The press regarded the slippies’ street antics during the trial with a bit of smug humor, as Fromme, Share and others crawled along the sidewalks, carved X’s into their foreheads, and shaved their scalps. Slowly by slowly, contemporary accounts began to define the group as under the thumb of Manson’s hypnotic spell—a comforting conclusion, actually, for it reduced all the id of the group to the evil of a single individual, namely Manson. Eventually, writers started using the term “family” in reference to them (hence the reason why I always spell it in lower case and add quotation marks).By trial’s end, the false, but dominant narrative had formed: fiends like Manson preyed on the counterculture because of the latter’s naiveté. That made the youth movement not just dangerous to the establishment, but to everyone. As Bugliosi and others noticed years later associations to the counterculture went from innocent to villainous.While the effect upon public perception of the counterculture might have weighed most heavily in the mind of Mae Brussell, the connections between Manson, Watson, and important people outside of the entertainment industry deserved considerable mention.First off, Manson, a prisoner actively contesting his parole in 1966, received a visit from George Shibley, a noted lawyer with a track record of high-profile cases: from the Zoot Suit Murder to his representation of Sirhan Sirhan. At the time of Manson’s impending release, he had a rather comfortable legal practice in Beverly Hills, representing a host of wealthy clients, among them powerful oil companies. Manson, meanwhile, was simply another ex-con up for parole. Moreover, Manson didn’t even want the parole, and attempted to fight it. Mae posed the question of why would someone that high up the food chain take the time to consult with Manson pro bono, since Manson had neither fame nor infamy in 1966.Once Manson got out, his parole officers treated him with kid gloves. Charlie missed some of his parole appointments with Samuel Barrett (for most people, a single missed appointment would land them back in the slam for the remainder of their sentence). Barrett hardly held him to task, and instead allowed him to build a small criminal empire out in the desert. And Manson’s previous parole officer (or someone who looks exactly like him and has a similar name) played guardian angel by taking Manson’s son, Michael Valentine Brunner, into foster care after the arrest of his mother for indecent exposure, and then returning the child to his parents upon Brunner’s release.Manson wasn’t the only person to receive attention from high-powered, well-connected Beverly Hills attorneys. David DeLoach, a powerful man within California GOP circles, and his partner Perry Walshin risked jail time to defend Watson. More interestingly, they claimed at the time of Watson’s arrest that they had had approximately forty consultations with the young Texan. Again, Mae wondered why such prominent attorneys would defend Watson, especially since he had nothing more serious than a single marijuana possession charge against him. Moreover, high-powered attorneys don’t come cheap. Who paid these guys?Bugliosi adequately documented the extraordinary legal actions that allowed the family to grow and prosper. But while he would attribute these to a series of coincidences, or sloppy law enforcement, Mae would see more a deliberate and systemic attempt to shape a Manson story into one that benefited defense contractors and everyone else threatened by peace and domestic harmony. And there were other events, some involving Manson, some not, that further attacked the reputation of the counterculture in the fall of 1969, some of which had more direct ties to Intel.A week after authorities charged Manson and his associates for the Tate-LaBianca murders, rioting erupted during the Rolling Stones’ performance at the Altamont Free Concert. Melvin Belli, Jack Ruby’s former attorney, arranged for the Hells Angels to provide security, for reasons unknown. After all, the Angels are noted shitkickers, not peacekeepers. The Angels' unsuitability and bellicosity resulted in the death of four of the concertgoers, one of whom drowned in a puddle of water, and two who got run over by a car. As chronicled in the movie Gimmie Shelter, a number of Hells Angels pummeled Meredith Hunter to death in full view of the band and cameras. Media coverage of the incident left an impression of the counterculture that contradicted the peaceful proceedings at Woodstock four months earlier. And with the sudden thrust of Manson into primetime news, the associations between hippies and wanton, uncontrollable violence became axiomatic to many.Adding fuel to the fire, Ed Butler, propagated an op-ed piece in August 1969 titled “Did Hate Kill Tate,” in which he blamed the deaths on the Black Panthers for the crimes. Writing for organs owned by right-wing razor magnate and Nixon supporter Patrick Frawley, Butler had previously recorded Lee Oswald’s declaration for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, an organization in which he was the only member. Mae saw Butler as an agent provocateur:Ed Butler worked with Lee Harvey Oswald. So it’s interesting that in 1969, the first person who has an opinion on who murdered these seven people would be Ed Butler....Now this is what we call provocateurs. Agent provocateurs. Clandestine [unintelligible] where somebody is the first one in, and he’s tied to all these other people and links, and he is taking your brain, now, and your gray matter, in the event they don’t have a suspect....So you see that Ed Butler has you in the palm of his hand. If they don’t have a suspect, it is—you’re going to think that the blacks come into fancy residential homes, and massacre these lovely white people.Mae went on to point out that Watson et al deliberately left the LaBiancas’ credit cards in a black section of Los Angeles, so that police would suspect the Panthers of committing these killings. She believed that in the months before the public had a face to go with the murders, speculation such as Butler’s tried to condition the public to accept the arrest and conviction of innocent blacks--just in case the authorities continued to protect Manson. Indeed, this might have been a reality had Susan Atkins not told all to Veronica Howard and Virginia Graham.Other links between the Tate-LaBianca murders and the JFK assassination abound. Attorney Joseph Ball, who once consulted for the Warren Commission, also consulted with Susan Atkins immediately after police charged her with the Tate-LaBianca murders. Writer Lawrence Schiller also worked with Atkins as a co-author for their 1970 book The Killing of Sharon Tate. Atkins reportedly received a $150,000 advance provided that she turn state’s evidence. With an introduction by Marshal Singer, The Killing of Sharon Tate honed the Helter Skelter scenario. Three years earlier, Schiller, then working for Capitol Records***, recorded Jack Ruby’s (most likely fraudulent) “confession” two days before the nightclub owner’s death.Mae found the overlapping of personnel between the JFK case and the Manson case almost bizarre beyond words. Ball, Schiller and Butler, who really seem to have worked some type of PSYOPS angle for the Kennedy assassination, have all the markings of Intel. For her, the fact that these men played critical roles in this case raised red flags ultimately leading to the conclusion that Manson was a creation, a patsy to take the fall for the real killer, Tex Watson, who obviously received some combat training (after all, he instructed the women, and carried out what police would describe as a “paramilitary style ambush” mostly by himself) despite having never served in the armed forces.____________________________*Lansbury’s thirteen-year-old daughter, Didi, frequently hung out with the family, and had written permission to do so. Didi claimed that she left after witnessing Manson’s rape of a child younger than herself, presumably the daughter of former part-time slippie Dennis Rice, but the particulars of this event are disputed.**In a 2008 interview with MSNBC, ex-slippie Catherine Share disputed the often-quoted assertion that Manson referred to the cataclysmic race war as “Helter Skelter.” If she is correct, then this provides yet another example of someone dragging the Beatles’ into an association with the Tate-LaBianca murders.***Both the Beach Boys and the Beatles recorded for Capitol/EMI George E. Shibley (1910-1989)
www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/zoot-george-e-shibley/George Shibley led an extraordinary career as a criminal defense attorney. "He took cases that no one else would," said his wife, Eleanor. Frequently, his clients were homosexuals, minorities, and radicals. In his 56-year career, none of his clients ever received the death penalty. He was known in the legal community as a fighter for the underdog, sometimes providing his services only on the promise of payment. It was therefore a lucky moment for the Sleepy Lagoon defendants when in 1942 LaRue McCormick, a labor organizer and member of the Communist Party, asked Shibley to replace one of the seven lawyers in the highly controversial case of People v. Zammora. The case would test Shibley's abilities as a defense lawyer and win him notoriety. He said of the experience, "it made the forces of law and order hate me." Yet the price was worth it when he eventually secured justice for the seventeen boys on trial.Shibley was born in New York City, the son of Syrian immigrants, on May 6, 1910. He spent most of his young life in Long Beach, California, where he attended the Polytechnic High School. He went on to Stanford University and Stanford Law, graduating in 1934. By 1935, he had set up his own law practice in Long Beach, where he remained for the rest of his life.When the largest mass trial in California history began in 1942, involving 22 Mexican American young men indicted for the murder of one, the odds seemed in favor of the prosecution. For Shibley, who had suffered from racism because of his Arab ancestry, People v. Zammora had special resonance. The defendants, who had only seven lawyers among them, were clearly being denied a fair trial from the start. When Shibley joined the defense, he quickly provoked the ire of the presiding judge, Charles Fricke. Shibley frequently raised objections to Fricke's procedures in the courtroom, which included seating the boys away from their lawyers, not allowing them to clean up or change clothes, and repeatedly demeaning the defense team and their clients in front of the jury. Shibley told the jury, "it's always been open season for the police on Mexicans," fully realizing the odds that were against his clients. Nevertheless, he tenaciously continued to object throughout the trial, in order to document the severe shortage of evidence -- and the unjust procedures of Judge Fricke's courtroom. Shibley was not looking to win the case. He knew the boys stood a better chance with a later appeal.He was right. On January 12, 1943, the jury handed down its convictions. Seventeen of the twenty-two boys were found guilty. Three of them were sentenced to life imprisonment for the murder of José Díaz. LaRue McCormick and other left-wing activists concerned about the boys' case quickly formed the Citizens' Committee for the Defense of Mexican American Youth (later reorganized as the Sleepy Lagoon Defense Committee) to raise money for an appeal. Shibley had planned well for this moment, but much to his surprise, he was drafted into the military immediately following the trial. Attorney Ben Margolis Jr. argued the appeal, aided in large part by the avalanche of objections Shibley had put on record during the trial. The boys were released in October of 1944 after the Second District Court of Appeals overturned the case. Presiding Judge Clement Nye ruled there was insufficient evidence for a conviction, and that the boys had not received a fair trial.In later years, Shibley gave an interview to the Long Beach Press-Telegram that highlighted the significance of People v. Zammora in court history:Its effect on constitutional law was felt throughout the United States. ...This has got to be one of the most outstanding cases of open police brutality ever recorded in this country. As a result of this case, the court held that a defendant had a right to participate in his own defense. ... In an action called the Zammora Decision the court said that if the courtroom was not big enough to enable defendants to sit with their attorneys, then some place must be found that is big enough. In short, it has made it almost impossible to hold mass trials.For years after the Sleepy Lagoon incident, Shibley maintained close friendships with many of his former clients. Of the seven lawyers involved in the defense, he was the only one whom the defendants had trusted. For the rest of his life, he tenderly referred to them as "the boys." When he died after heart surgery on July 4, 1989, they came to mourn with his family at the funeral.dlib.nyu.edu/findingaids/html/tamwag/tam_237/bioghist.htmlGeorge E. ShibleyGeorge E. Shibley (1910-1989) was a left-wing lawyer who represented the Chicano defendants in the 1942 "Sleepy Lagoon," California case (later the basis for the film Zoot Suit). He also represented seamen and longshoremen and a number of labor unions on the West Coast, and later represented Sirhan Sirhan, convicted assassin of Robert Kennedy. Shibley was convicted in 1956 of receiving stolen government records in connection with his defense of a U.S. Marine, one Sergeant Bennette.
( SO the Government could extort and order him to do their bidding)
www.ravellaw.com/opinions/2ea3cfface3793a24426e9224fdbc273web.archive.org/web/20200810092256/https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-01-16-hl-28850-story.html" George Shibley, who was convicted... will be paroled from the Terminal Island Federal Prison.... Shibley was sentenced to serve three years in prison, but served only 1 year, 5 months, and 8 days of the sentence before being granted parole."
Charlie was incarcerated at Terminal Island from about May of 1956 until Sept 30, 1958.
Thus the two were together at TI from about the beginning of '57 to mid '58--roughly 18 months. Is that where their friendship began? Depending on how close they were, Shibley may have schooled Charlie on the finer points of criminal law, like how tough it would be to convict someone of murder if the accused wasn't even at the crime scene. Then almost ten years later, Shibley hears that Charlie is again at TI, just a couple of miles from his own law office. Did he just pay a social call, with nothing more to it? Or did Charlie reach out to his old friend, telling him he needed some legal advice?
After the highly publicized arrest of Charlie in this most heinous of crimes, maybe Shibley was worried someone from the police or prosecutor would come to him, asking him about this visit. So then he deliberately interjects himself into the case, so that now whatever was said at TI can be claimed to be covered under "lawyer-client" confidentiality laws. Shibley is off the hook, and fades from the scene.murdersofaugust69.freeforums.net/thread/29/family-attorneys |
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hope
Full Member
Posts: 139
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Post by hope on Oct 18, 2020 17:53:36 GMT -6
Wow! No kidding, the connections between all these people are insane. And thank you for posting that. I remember Valley Flyer posting something along the lines of "Ask Marilyn about the guy who crossed Silveria and supposedly committed suicide that same night." I was always wondered what that was about.
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hope
Full Member
Posts: 139
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Post by hope on Oct 18, 2020 17:37:23 GMT -6
⇡ ⇡ All of this! ⇡⇡
You are absolutely right, none of that is how you would expect a family searching for a missing 12 year old girl to act. Something is very off.
Interesting regarding the files, good eye lol. Let's hope people will be able to see the actual reports. PCOS should make them public when all is said and done. I don't understand what is going on with that situation either!
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Post by elantric on Oct 18, 2020 17:28:54 GMT -6
www.charlesmanson.com/family-members/david-baker/DAVID BAKER (AKA KARATE DAVE)
(aka David Lipsett, David William Lipsett, Karate Dave, Charley, Charles Ellis)
David Baker
To the Family, Baker was known as Karate Dave
David Baker was born on August 3, 1946 and was from Vallejo California, a city in the San Francisco Bay Area. Baker was a Vietnam Veteran and expert in Karate and Martial Arts, which is why the family referred to him as Karate Dave. Baker hung around the Family for a few months from around April to July of 1969, and was arrested with the family in Inyo County, on the way to the Barker Ranch. This placed him on Lieutenant Deemer’s list of known Manson associates, which also noted that his identifying marks were numerous bullet wounds and scars. According to Paul Watson, Karate Dave was described as heavy duty recruit, not to be messed with.
“Karate Dave was another heavy-duty recruit who joined us during that period (Gresham time span). He was twenty-six, a Vietnam vet, and tough as nails. He had a plastic elbow (a vestige of his battlefield experience) and carried himself with an air of cold and utter confidence. Dave wasn’t big (five-nine, 160 pounds) but was built like a gymnast. While he seemed to like Charlie, he never tried to ingratiate himself. He was in it strictly for the goodies—all the women he could handle and what promised to be some excitement.” ….
It is not clear how exactly David Baker wound up with the family but in a book titled “Manson: the life and times of Charles Manson” by Investigative Journalist Jeff Guinn, Charlie said that he’d met someone who was a karate expert and would come out to the Spahn Ranch to teach them how to fight hand-to-hand. Baker was also said, by Danny DeCarlo, in an interview for Ed Sanders book, “The Family“, to be the source of the 1952 Continental Bakery Hostess Twinkie truck that the Manson Family used.
“He bought the bread truck off of one Dave Lipsett, a friend of Manson. DeCarlo traded some stolen motorcycle parts, including an engine, for the Twinkie truck.”
David Baker was also arrested with family members on another occasion in Antelope Valley, the western tip of the Mojave Desert. According to “My Life with Charles Manson“ by Paul Watkins, the group was pulled over in a big heavy-duty Dodge ambulance-weapons-carrier Charlie had ordered Watkins to hot-wire the night before; the highway patrol unit spotted it for having no rear license plate, and when closely inspected by police, was discovered to be stolen. Arrested at the scene were Dave, Nancy Pitman, Paul Watkins, Sandra Good, Ruth Ann Moorehouse, Catherine Gillies, Bo Rosenberg, Sherry Cooper, Susan Atkins, and Patricia Krenwinkel.
The charges against the occupants of the stolen vehicle were dismissed as it was determined that the vehicle was stolen multiple times and police couldn’t locate the current owner, so all prisoners were released. According to Watson, when he returned to Spahn Ranch, he saw David already there and that he had escaped the jail through a window.
“When I got back to Spahn’s, the girls were there. So was Dave; he had climbed out the bathroom window in Mojave during a court recess and had escaped the same night. A week later, Dave left the Family, and I never saw him again.
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Post by elantric on Oct 18, 2020 17:14:45 GMT -6
Archive of lost forum Truth on Tate Labianca web.archive.org/web/20130904090739/http://truthontatelabianca.com/#manson-killers-and-conspirators.539
The Complete Mae Brussell Audio Archivearchive.org/details/the-compleat-mae-brussellThe Compleat Mae Brussell
by Mae Brussell
Publication date 1971-01-01
Topics Mae Brussell
Language English
~ Please Note : This is a 32GB archive in the process of being organized and uploaded. It will take some time to fully complete. An update of Tim Canale's episode guide is also forthcoming. ~
"Dialogue: Conspiracy is a program which shares the political research of Mae Brussell. Her almost ten years of work are based on the theory that government is moved as much or more by conspiracy than by any democratic process."
— KLRB, June 1972
This is a collection of Mae Brussell's recordings from 1971 to 1988. The archive begins in June 1971, a month after Mae began her radio career as a frequent guest on KLRB's Dialogue, which expanded into KLRB's regular segment Dialogue: Assassination and from there into Dialogue: Conspiracy and World Watchers International.
While a few of Mae's recordings have been lost, this collection [when completed will be] a comprehensive source of her surviving broadcast material. For supplemental interviews and lectures, [click here].
Any overview of American journalism during the 1970s which excludes Mae is incomplete. She is unambiguously the mother of all contemporary conspiracy theory, through both her dedicated research into both the assassination of John F. Kennedy which brought her into collaboration with New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison, as well her pursuance of the inscrutable tales of the Gemstone File. She taught an accredited course on political conspiracy at Monterey Peninsula College in the 1970s.
While Mae brought to the studio desk her own particular fixations (depopulation, dune buggies) the depth and breadth of her research is extraordinary, as is how much she wound up getting right; for example, her discussions of CIA chemical interrogation and behavioral research as early as 1972 - three years before this information was made public.
On May 29th 1968, Mae confronted Rose Kennedy at the Monterey Peninsula Airport, handing her a note that Robert Kennedy would be assassinated. He was shot to death at The Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles a week later.
On March 29th 1981, Mae predicted on-air that Ronald Reagan would be assassinated, and that the perpetrator would likely originate within circles around George H.W. Bush. The very next day, Reagan was shot by John Hinckley Jr. - who had been arrested a year earlier carrying three guns inside Nashville Airport on the day President Jimmy Carter arrived in the city, a crime for which he was released without being charged or even fingerprinted. He is the son of John Hinckley Sr. (President of Vanderbilt Energy and World Vision U.S.) and he was released from a federal psychiatric facility in 2016 with his records sealed by the FBI. The Hinckleys underwrote George W. Bush's failed congressional campaign of 1978. The Midland, Texas oil families go back a long time.
What Warren Hinckle called 'The Brussell Thesis' — "That an ex-Nazi scientist-Old Boy OSS clique in the CIA using Mafia hit men changed the course of American history by bumping off one and all, high and low, who became an irritant to them" — was considered as a fringe theory in the 1970s before its' fundaments were vindicated by the research of a generation of "Brussell Sprouts" during the 1980s & 1990s.
Before her passing in October of 1988, Mae requested that a public anti-fascist research library be set up in her name in Santa Cruz, California. Digitization of her paper archive was estimated to cost $150,000 in 1989. The money never materialized, and rivalries surrounding the archive eventually removed it from public access completely.
Thanks to Tim Canale for providing access to Mae's recordings and supplementary material, to Dave Ratcliffe for his preservation of World Watchers International's bibliographies, and to Paul Krassner for additional guidance.
"I see pockets of fascism ... The Rockefellers' attorney, Allen Dulles, consulted with Reinhard Gehlen, the Nazi intelligence chief, to form our own CIA. George Ball writes about getting rid of people by the millions. Patrick Buchanan writes an article justifying the use of torture. Zbigniew Brzezinski, head of our National Security Council, writes that 'with the use of computers, human behavior itself will become more determined and subject to deliberate programming,' and that 'it will soon be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen' ... It's not my whole life. It's important to find out who killed Kennedy, but not at the expense of your own humanness. I don't lose anything if they never find out who killed him. I still have my self-respect. And I like having children and preparing meals and mastering everything having to do with the home. In fact, my initial concern over who killed John Kennedy was basically a selfish one. I wanted to find out if there had been a coup, if the United States was going fascist. Would I be like Anne Frank's father, who told his family that things were OK and that people were basically good - while they were living their last days? They never fought Nazism, but just watched it all go by and hid in the attic until their time came around to be taken away. With a family of five children, my husband and myself, I had an obligation to understand the world outside my home. When Hitler failed, his officers were brought to the U.S. from inside Rockefeller Center, and to the Bahamas and Southern states to build this dream of the Fourth Reich. It is in this context that the Kennedys, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, labor leaders, judges, entertainers, reporters, authors, students, Black Panthers, Indians, Chicanos, and hippies are being slain, and why the masses are being doped into control."
— Mae Brussell
"BRUSSELL is known to various police agencies on the Monterey Peninsula as a chronic complainer."
— FBI San Francisco Field Office
"If something happens to me, we'll know it wasn't an accident."
— John Lennon, 1972, on underwriting Mae's exposé of the Watergate Affair in The Realist |
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Post by elantric on Oct 18, 2020 17:06:21 GMT -6
Karpis taught Charlie a lot. In the beginning of Ed Sanders dune buggy battalion Charlie use to use the speakers that were strategically located by or under the other inmates pillows to give them messages while they were sleeping. That sounds exactly like Dr. D. Ewen Cameron's technique of "psychic driving" where he'd keep pounding messages into patients minds while they were in an altered state of consciousness vis drugs, deep sleep etc.
Dr Cameron is the subject of Stephen Bennett's film Eminent Monsters (2020), which was funded by BBC Scotland and Creative Scotland.[8]
www.sidewaysfilm.com/eminent-monsters/
vimeo.com/ondemand/eminentmonsters/392692250
vimeo.com/ondemand/eminentmonsters
vimeo.com/ondemand/eminentmonsters/392692250?autoplay=1
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Post by elantric on Oct 18, 2020 16:52:45 GMT -6
web.archive.org/web/20130904041229/http://truthontatelabianca.com/threads/truman-capote-interviews-bobby-beausoleil.3551/Truman Capote Interviews Bobby Beausoleil
Scene: A cell in a maximum-security cell block at San Quentin prison in California. The cell is furnished with a single cot, and its permanent occupant, Robert Beausoleil, and his visitor are required to sit on it in rather cramped positions. The cell is neat, uncluttered; a well-waxed guitar stands in one corner. But it is late on a winter afternoon, and in the air lingers a chill, even a hint of mist, as though fog from San Francisco Bay had infiltrated the prison itself.
Despite the chill, Beausoleil is shirtless, wearing only a pair of prison-issue denim trousers, and it is clear that he is satisfied with his appearance, his body particularly, which is lithe, feline, in well-toned shape considering that he has been incarcerated more than a decade. His chest and arms are a panorama of tattooed emblems: feisty dragons, coiled chrysanthemums, uncoiled serpents. He is thought by some to be exceptionally good-looking; he is, but in a rather hustlerish camp-macho style. Not surprisingly, he worked as an actor as a child and appeared in several Hollywood films; later, as a very young man, he was for a while the protege of Kenneth Anger, the experimental film-maker (Scorpio Rising) and author (Hollywood Babylon); indeed, Anger cast him in the title role of Lucifer Rising, an unfinished film.
Robert Beausoleil, who is now thirty-one, is the real mystery figure of the Charles Manson cult; more to the pointand it's a point that has never been clearly brought forth in accounts of that tribe-he is the key to the mystery of the homicidal escapades of the so-called Manson family, notably the Sharon Tate-Lo Bianca murders.
It all began with the murder of Gary Hinman, a middle-aged professional musician who had befriended various members of the Manson brethren and who, unfortunately for him, lived alone in a small isolated house in Topanga Canyon, Los Angeles County. Hinman had been tied up and tortured for several days (among other indignities, one of his ears had been severed) before his throat had been mercifully and lastingly slashed. When Hinman's body, bloated and abuzz with August flies, was discovered, police found bloody graffiti on the walls of his modest house ("Death to Pigs!") graffiti similar to the sort soon to be found in the households of Miss Tate and Mr, and Mrs. Lo Bianco.
However, just a few days prior to the Tate-Lo Bianco slayings, Robert Beausoleil, caught driving a car that had been the property of the victim, was under arrest and in jail, accused of having murdered the helpless Mr. Hinman. It was then that Manson and his chums, in the hopes of freeing Beausoleil, conceived the notion of committing a series of homicides similar to the Hinman affair; if Beausoleil was still incarcerated at the time of these killings, then how could he be guilty of the Hinman atrocity? Or so the Manson brood reasoned. That is to say, it was out of devotion to "Bobby" Beausoleil that Tex Watson and those cutthroat young ladies, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, Leslie Van Hooten, sallied forth on their satanic errands.
RB: Strange. Beausoleil. That's French. My name is French. It means Beautiful Sun. Fuck. Nobody sees much sun inside this resort. Listen to the foghorns. Like train whistles. Moan, moan. And they're worse in the summer. Maybe it must be there's more fog in summer than in winter. Weather. Fuck it, I'm not going anywhere. But just listen. Moan, moan. So what've you been up to today?
TC: Just around. Had a little talk with Sirhan.
RB (laughs): Sirhan B. Sirhan. I knew him when they had me up on the Row. He's a sick guy. He don't belong here. He ought to be in Atascadero. Want some gum? Yeah, well, you seem to know your way around here pretty good. I was watching you out on the yard. I was surprised the warden lets you walk around the yard by yourself. Somebody might cut you.
TC: Why?
RB: For the hell of it. But you've been here a lot, huh? Some of the guys were telling me.
TC: Maybe half a dozen times on different research projects.
RB: There's just one thing here I've never seen. But I'd like to see that little apple-green room. When they railroaded me on that Hinman deal and I got the death sentence, well, they had me up on the Row a good spell. Right up to when the court abolished the death penalty. So I used to wonder about the little green room.
TC: Actually, it's more like three rooms.
RB: I thought it was a little round room with a sort of glass sealed igloo hut set in the center. With windows in the igloo so the witnesses standing outside can see the guys choking to death on that peach perfume.
Tc: Yes, that's the gas-chamber room. But when the prisoner is brought down from Death Row he steps from the elevator directly into a "holding" room that adjoins the witness room. There are two cells in this "holding" room, two, in case it's a double execution. They're ordinary cells, just like this one, and the prisoner spends his last night there before his execution in the morning, reading, listening to the radio, playing cards with the guards. But the interesting thing I discovered was that there's a third room in this little suite. It's behind a closed door right next to the "holding" cell. I just opened the door and walked in and none of the guards that were with me tried to stop me. And it was the most haunting room I've ever seen. Because you know what's in it? All the leftovers, all the paraphernalia that the different condemned men had had with them in the "holding" cells. Books. Bibles and Western paperbacks and Erle Stanley Gardner, James Bond. Old brown newspapers. Some of them%twenty years old. Unfinished crossword puzzles. Unfinished letters. Sweetheart snapshots. Dim, crumbling little Kodak children. Pathetic.
BB: You ever seen a guy gassed?
Tc: Once. But he made it look like a lark. He was happy to go, he wanted to get it over with; he sat down in that chair like he was going to the dentist to have his teeth cleaned. But in Kansas, I saw two men hanged.
RB: Perry Smith? And what's his name-Dick Hickock? Well, once they hit the end of the rope, I guess they don't feel anything.
Tc: So we're told. But after the drop, they go on living-fifteen, twenty minutes. Struggling. Gasping for breath, the body still battling for life. I couldn't help it, I vomited. ns: Maybe you're not so cool, huh? You seem cool. So, did Sirhan beef about being kept in Special Security?
RB: Sort of. He's lonesome. He wants to mix with the other prisoners, join the general population.
RB: He don't know what's good for him. Outside, somebody'd snuff him for sure.
TC: Why?
RB: For the same reason he snuffed Kennedy. Recognition. Half the people who snuff people, that's what they want: recognition. Get their picture in the paper.
TC: That's not why you killed Gary Hinman.
RB: (Silence)
TC: That was because you and Manson wanted Hinman to give you money and his car, and when he wouldn't-well ...
RB: (Silence)
TC: I was thinking. I know Sirhan, and I knew Robert Kennedy. I knew Lee Harvey Oswald, and I knew Jack Kennedy. The odds against that-one person knowing all four of those men-must be astounding.
RB: Oswald? You knew Oswald? Really?
TC: I met him in Moscow just after he defected. One night I was having dinner with a friend, an Italian newspaper correspondent, and when he came by to pick me up he asked me if I'd mind going with him first to talk to a young American defector, one Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald was staying at the Metropole, an old Czarist hotel just off Kremlin Square. The Metropole has a big gloomy lobby full of shadows and dead palm trees. And there he was, sitting in the dark under a dead palm tree. Thin and pale, thin-lipped, starved-looking. He was wearing chinos and tennis shoes and a lumberjack shirt. And right away he was angry-he was grinding his teeth, and his eyes were jumping every which way. He was boiling over about everything: the American ambassador; the Russians-he was mad at them because they wouldn't let him stay in Moscow. We talked to him for about half an hour, and my Italian friend didn't think the guy was worth filing a story about. Just another paranoid hysteric; the Moscow woods were rampant with those. I never thought about him again, not until many years later. Not until after the assassination when I saw his picture flashed on television.
RB: Does that make you the only one that knew both of them, Oswald and Kennedy?
TC: No. There was an American girl, Priscilla Johnson. She worked for U.P. in Moscow. She knew Kennedy, and she met Oswald around the same time I did. But I can tell you something else almost as curious. About some of those people your friends murdered.
RB: (Silence)
TC: I knew them. At least, out of the five people killed in the Tate house that night, I knew four of them. I'd met Sharon Tate at the Cannes Film Festival. Jay Sebring cut my hair a couple of times. I'd had lunch once in San Francisco with Abigail Folger and her boyfriend, Frykowski. In other words, I'd known them independently of each other. And yet one night there they were, all gathered together in the same house waiting for your friends to arrive. Quite a coincidence.
RB (lights a cigarette; smiles): Know what I'd say? I'd say you're not such a lucky guy to know. Shit. Listen to that. Moan, moan. I'm cold. You cold?
Tc: Why don't you put on your shirt?
RB: (Silence)
Tc: It's odd about tattoos. I've talked to several hundred men convicted of homicide-multiple homicide, in most cases. The only common denominate- I could find among them was tattoos. A good eighty percent of them were heavily tattooed. Richard Speck. York and Latham. Smith and Hickock.
RB: I'll put on my sweater.
TC: If you weren't here, if you could be anywhere you wanted to be, doing anything you wanted to do, where would you be and what would you be doing?
RB: Tripping. Out on my Honda chugging along the Coast road, the fast curves, the waves and the water, plenty of sun. Out of San Fran, headed Mendocino way, riding through the redwoods. I'd be making love. I'd be on the beach by a bonfire making love. I'd be making music and balling and sucking some great Acapulco weed and watching the sun go down. Throw some driftwood on the fire. Good gash, good hash, just tripping right along.
TC: You can get hash in here.
RB: And everything else. Any kind of dope-for a price. There are dudes in here on everything but roller skates.
TC: Is that what your life was like before you were arrested? Just tripping? Didn't you ever have a job?
RB: Once in a while. I played guitar in a couple of bars.
TC: I understand you were quite a cocks man. The ruler of a virtual seraglio. How many children have you fathered?
RB: (Silence-but shrugs, grins, smokes)
TC: I'm surprised you have a guitar. Some prisons don't allow it because the strings can be detached and used as weapons. A garrote. How long have you been playing?
RB: Oh, since I was a kid. I was one of those Hollywood kids. I was in a couple of movies. But my folks were against it. They're real straight people. Anyway, I never cared about the acting part. I just wanted to write music and play it and sing.
TC: But what about the film you made with Kenneth Anger-Lucifer Rising?
RB: Yeah.
Tc: How did you get along with Anger?
RB: Okay.
Tc: Then why does Kenneth Anger wear a picture locket on a chain around his neck? On one side of the locket there is a picture of you; on the other there is an image of a frog with an inscription: "Bobby Beausoleil changed into a frog by Kenneth Anger." A voodoo amulet, so to say. A curse he put on you because you're supposed to have ripped him off. Left in the middle of the night with his car-and a few other things.
RB: (narrowed eyes): Did he tell you that?
Tc: No, I've never met him. But I was told it by a number of other people.
RB (reaches for guitar, tunes it, strums it, sings): "This is my song, this is my song, this is my dark song, my dark song ..." Everybody always wants to know how I got together with Manson. It was through our music. He plays some, too. One night I was driving around with a bunch of my ladies. Well, we came to this old roadhouse, beer place, with a lot of cars outside. So we went inside, and there was Charlie with some of his ladies. We all got to talking, played some together; the next day Charlie came to see me in my van, and we all, his people and my people, ended up camping out together. Brothers and sisters. A family.
Tc: Did you see Manson as a leader? Did you feel influenced by him right away?
RB: Hell, no. He had his people, I had mine. If anybody was influenced, it was him. By me.
Tc: Yes, he was attracted to you. Infatuated. Or so he says. You seem to have had that effect on a lot of people, men and women.
RB: Whatever happens, happens. It's all good.
Tc: Do you consider killing innocent people a good thing?
RB: Who said they were innocent?
TC: Well, we'll return to that. But for now: What is your own sense of morality? How do you differentiate between good and bad?
RB: Good and bad? It's all good. If it happens, it's got to be good. Otherwise, it wouldn't be happening. It's just the way life flows. Moves together. I move with it. I don't question it.
TC: In other words, you don't question the act of murder. You consider it "good" because it "happens." Justifiable.
RB: I have my own justice. I live by my own law, you know. I don't respect the laws of this society. Because society doesn't respect its own laws. I make my own laws and live by them. I have my own sense of justice.
Tc: And what is your sense of justice?
RB: I believe that what goes around comes around. What goes up comes down. That's how life flows, and I flow with it.
TC: You're not making much sense-at least to me. And I don't think you're stupid. Let's try again. In your opinion, it's all right that Manson sent Tex Watson and those girls into that house to slaughter total strangers, innocent people
RB: I said: Who says they were innocent? They burned people on dope deals. Sharon Tate and that gang. They picked up kids on the Strip and took them home and whipped them. Made movies of it. Ask the cops; they found the movies. Not that they'd tell you the truth.
TC: The truth is, the Lo Biancos and Sharon Tate and her friends were killed to protect you. Their deaths were directly linked to the Gary Hinman murder.
RB: I hear you. I hear where you're coming from.
TC: Those were all imitations of the Hinman murder-to prove that you couldn't have killed Hinman. And thereby get you out of jail.
RB: To get me out of jail. (He nods, smiles, sighs-complimented) None of that came out at any of the trials. The girls got on the stand and tried to really tell how it all came down, but nobody would listen. People couldn't believe anything except what the media said. The media had them programmed to believe it all happened because we were out to start a race war. That it was mean niggers going around hurting all these good white folk. Only-it was like you say. The media, they called us a "family." And it was the only true thing they said. We were a family. We were mother, father, brother, sister, daughter, son. If a member of our family was in jeopardy, we didn't abandon that person. And so for the love of a brother, a brother who was in jail on a murder rap, all those killings came down.
Tc: And you don't regret that?
RB: No. If my brothers and sisters did it, then it's good. Everything in life is good. It all flows. It's all good. It's all music.
Tc: When you were up on Death Row, if you'd been forced to flow down to the gas chamber and whiff the peaches, would you have given that your stamp of approval?
RB: If that's how it came down. Everything that happens is good.
Tc: War. Starving children. Pain. Cruelty. Blindness. Prisons. Desperation. Indifference. All good?
RB: What's that look you're giving me?
Tc: Nothing. I was noticing how your face changes. One moment, with just the slightest shift of angle, you look so boyish, entirely innocent, a charmer. And then-well, one can see you as a sort of Forty-second Street Lucifer. Have you ever seen Night Must Fall? An old movie with Robert Montgomery? No? Well, it's about an impish, innocent-looking delightful young man who travels about the English countryside charming old ladies, then cutting off their heads and carrying the heads around with him in leather hat-boxes.
RB: So what's that got to do with me?
TC: I was thinking-if it was ever remade, if someone Americanized it, turned the Montgomery character into a young drifter with hazel eyes and a smoky voice, you'd be very good in the part.
RB: Are you trying to say I'm a psychopath? I'm not a nut. If I have to use violence, I'll use it, but I don't believe in killing.
TC: Then I must be deaf. Am I mistaken, or didn't you just tell me that it didn't matter what atrocity one person committed against another, it was good, all good?
RB: (Silence)
Tc Tell me, Bobby, how do you view yourself?
RB: As a convict.
TC: But beyond that.
BB: As a man. A white man. And everything a white man stands for.
Tc: Yes, one of the guards told me you were the ringleader of the Aryan Brotherhood.
RB (hostile): What do you know about the Brotherhood?
Tc: That it's composed of a bunch of hard-nosed white guys. That it's a somewhat fascist-minded fraternity. That it started in California, and has spread throughout the American prison system, north, south, east, and west. That the prison authorities consider it a dangerous, troublemaking cult.
BB: A man has to defend himself. We're outnumbered. You got no idea how rough it is. We're all more scared of each other than we are of the pigs in here. You got to be on your toes every second if you don't want a shiv in your back. The blacks and Chicanos, they got their own gangs. The Indians, too; or I should say the "Native Americans"-that's how these redskins call themselves: what a laugh! Yessir, rough. With all the racial tensions, politics, dope, gambling, and sex. The blacks really go for the young white kids. They like to shove those big black dicks up those tight white asses.
TC: Have you ever thought what you would do with your life if and when you were paroled out of here?
RB: That's a tunnel I don't see no end to. They'll never let Charlie go.
TC: I hope you're right, and I think you are. But it's very likely that you'll be paroled some day. Perhaps sooner than you imagine. Then what?
RB (strums guitar): I'd like to record some of my music. Get it played on the air.
Tc: That was Perry Smith's dream. And Charlie Manson's, too. Maybe you fellows have more in common than mere tattoos.
RB: Just between us, Charlie doesn't have a whole lot of talent. (Strumming chords) "This is my song, my dark song, my dark song." I got my first guitar when I was eleven; I found it in my grandma's attic and taught myself to play it, and I've been nuts about music ever since. My grandma was a sweet woman, and her attic was my favorite place. I liked to lie up there and listen to the rain. Or hide up there when my dad came looking for me with his belt. Shit. You hear that? Moan, moan. It's enough to drive you crazy.
Tc: Listen to me, Bobby. And answer carefully. Suppose, when you get out of here, somebody came to you-let's say Charlie-and asked you to commit an act of violence, kill a man, would you do it?
RB (after lighting another cigarette, after smoking it half through): I might. It depends. I never meant to ... to ... hurt Gary Hinman. But one thing happened. And another. And then it all came down.
Tc: And it was all good.
RB: It was all good.
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