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Post by Admin Horan on Jan 12, 2020 7:00:44 GMT -6
Ooooooohhhhh, you're more on the right track than you realize. I'm NOt saying EVERY serial killer was programmed by the CIA. What I'm saying is, birds of a feather flock together. Like, to the same government/prison shrinks. Or the same jail cell while they do their nickel for GTA. Or to the same pedophile colony when they get out of the State Hospital for the Silly...
...BEFORE they go postal.
For example, did you know Charles Manson met Leno LaBianca TEN years BEFORE Helter Skelter? Or that he was "treated" by the exact same shrinks in the federal pen as...well, stay plugged in.
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Post by louclou on Jan 19, 2020 21:00:46 GMT -6
Okay okay yes I get what your saying. Makes sense as well! Although I do think still there's a connection for some through military. Admitting to mind control experiments etc. Possibly using "low intelligent" or in their minds "non contributing" first. Before doing it to idk off top of my head assassin's. Not as concerned for deprogramming just getting job done. I'm sure your aware Paul Bernardo was well acquainted to Capt Williams, coincidence🤷... purpose. (?)
I have to say enjoy reading your posts, your expressive writing is fun. (example replying to me "NOt") actually I began here in response to that in fact. I do enjoy this forum, it's nice to know others have a high interest in murder(ers) mystery as I do. Thanks for replying, stay safe out there!
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Post by Admin Horan on Jan 19, 2020 21:27:59 GMT -6
Uh, Paul Bernardo? Who's that?
Also, uh, Berkowitz was supposedly in the 17th Inf Div in Korea in 1971-72. BUT, the 17th Inf Div did not exist then. On the other hand, he COULD have been assigned to the 17th Inf REGIMENT...that would be a pretty big deal. As we shall see.
Whilst (snicker) we're on the subject, what do you know about Reverend Jim Jones?
Oh, and have you been listening to the podcast?
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Post by dt2016 on Jan 25, 2020 6:08:39 GMT -6
Hi Professor, you can move this if I'm in the wrong thread- but on your podcasts is sounds like you're familiar with Carl Denaro's views so I'm sure you've heard him on the Opperman Report. If need be I can link it. Also he said he's taken over Maury's facebook page if you haven't checked that out. Looking forward to more. DT
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Post by Admin Horan on Jan 27, 2020 10:38:06 GMT -6
Okay. I see. Well, sort of. But let's keep this thread just about Berko and his life before SOS. I mean, if you have a photo of him hanging out with Manson, great. And yes, we have found a concrete connection between the CRIMES, but not necessarily between Charlie and Berko PERSONALLY. Make sense?
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Post by patrick1964 on Feb 17, 2020 18:41:43 GMT -6
I often wondered why the press deemed Berkowitz as “the Son of Sam”? I am aware of his statements in his (or the cult’s) first letter, “I am a monster. I am the "Son of Sam." I am a little "brat" - but these all have the ring of being descriptive phrases and not a proper name. If I was writing to a person who doesn’t know me, I might say in the body text of the letter for them to get a better understanding of who I am, “I am a Catholic. I am Irish. I am a hard worker.” Then we reach the bottom of the letter he plainly writes, “Yours in murder — Mr. Monster.” The Complimentary Close seems to be a play on the more common phrase, “Yours in Christ,” while the Signature is Mr. Monster. Mr. Monster is the name that Berkowitz (or others) coined for himself. Also Berkowitz claimed in his YouTube series that the “Son of Sam” was supposed to mean the “Son of Samhain” which makes more sense when these three sentences are interpreted as, “I am a monster, a son of a demon and a little brat.”
Who is the original Mr. Monster? He is a 1947 monster-hunting comic book character who dispatches his villain with a headshot from a .45 pistol. On the first page of his introductory story, the descriptive caption reads, “In this world of ours, nothing is perfect — from time to time children are born to normal humans...infants resembling animals. Having strangely warped minds and bodies occasionally enter our world...” I thought it was interesting that everyone tends to ignore the “Mr. Monster” signature especially since the original Mr. Monster’s philosophical belief is that there are (The) Children who were born as Animals (dogs?) and are capable of great evil and violence.
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Post by Admin Horan on Feb 18, 2020 7:53:14 GMT -6
One reason the media jumped on the "Son of Sam" theory/bandwagon is because NYPD really wanted them to. Since about 1970, the lines between police and reporters had been getting drawn much, much harder. Before then, cops and reporters were cozy as lice--reporters did favors for cops, and cops did favors for reporters. For example, reporters very, very often took down witness and suspect statements, since cops didn't know shorthand. Then the reporter would type the statement for the cop, and the cop would let the reporter keep the carbon to use in a news story. But by 1970, reporters were being shoved out of the immediate picture. So, they had to take what they could get.
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Post by Omega on Feb 18, 2020 9:38:50 GMT -6
RE: Posted by patrick1964:
"Who is the original Mr. Monster? He is a 1947 monster-hunting comic book character who dispatches his villain with a headshot from a .45 pistol. On the first page of his introductory story, the descriptive caption reads, “In this world of ours, nothing is perfect — from time to time children are born to normal humans...infants resembling animals. Having strangely warped minds and bodies occasionally enter our world...”
Interesting angle there. I had never heard about the comic book character connection in the past to Son of Sam.There is a similar comic book connection to the Zodiac case. I believe I saw this on one of the History Channel documentaries on the Zodiac, that a Tim Holt comic book from the 1950s may have inspired the greeting that was on the Halloween card sent to Paul Avery at the San Francisco Chronicle in 1970 in the part that says “by fire, by gun, by knife, by rope.” This was contained in a story in the Tim Holt comic.
There are a lot of copycat elements that the "Son of Sam" took from the Zodiac case - letters to police and press, lover's lanes, etc. and add this one to the mix. I'm not saying that Zodiac and SOS are related. I still believe that the serial killer angle was created by Berkowitz and his cronies (the "22 Disciple from Hell"?) after the Christine Freund murder because the cops were getting close in discovering another motive/person(s) involved. The serial killer was created to throw police in another direction and they took the bait. A lot of the "inventing" of the "Son of Sam" serial killer persona was probably based on the Zodiac and copied.
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Post by patrick1964 on Feb 18, 2020 11:38:36 GMT -6
Omega, it is not surprising that you never heard of the Mr. Monster/ Berkowitz letter connection before because I never shared it. I discovered the link many years back.
You mentioned the Zodiac and Tim Holt’s “Wheel of Death” comic cover and I felt compelled to share this. My buddy, who is a professional writer who authored many true crime books as well as other genre paperbacks, wrote the back cover texts for Graysmith’s “Zodiac.” In the 90s, NY had its own Zodiac copycat who would send “occult-ish” letters to the press. I discovered that he included a few phrases from a then current independent, adult comic book, FAUST. This comic was only available from direct market comic book stores — no newsstands, no pharmacies or cigar stores. My buddy and I shared this information with a NYPD homicide detective who planned to visit comic books shops in near the crime scenes. The problem was that at the time, the description of the Zodiac was a middle aged African American with a mustache but a couple of years later, the shooter was discovered to be Heriberto Seda, a young Latino. In “Sleep My Little Dead: The True Story of the Zodiac Killer” a book about Seda, the author describes the contents of his room (paraphrasing), “he was a washed in a fantasy world of comic books, sci-fi and horror movies.”
I mention this because it is my belief that these cults today are not influenced by 200 year old Grimoires. It is strictly a bastardization of paperback Black Magic Bibles, comic books, monster movies and other pop culture goodies. Even “so called” serious occultist (snicker) like Peter Levenda pushes his agenda that Lovecraft’s Necronomicon is real!
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Post by patrick1964 on Feb 18, 2020 11:54:28 GMT -6
Just a quick question, when Berkowitz, who claim he was lonely looking for companionship, met Carr at a party (I know they knew each other before but I am sticking with Berkowitz’s narrative) and Carr struck up a conversation about the occult, does anyone think the conversation was something like this: ”So David, have you ever heard of beelzebub? If you are not doing anything later, I could introduce you to some friends of mine and we could sacrifice then skin a dog.”
I would bet the conversation was more like this: “Do you play D&D? I play with a few guys and if you want to join our group... Did you see “The Exorcist?” Everything in that movie is real!”
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Post by Omega on Feb 18, 2020 15:29:50 GMT -6
Fascinating stuff there Patrick, especially on the Zodiac copycat Heriberto Seda! (not to get off-topic, since this is the Son of Sam topic board, but I remember the Seda Zodiac case in NY in the early 90s and always wondered how he knew the victim's astrological signs? They seemed to be random people. Maybe it was just coincidence.) Detective Bill Clark, who worked the Son of Sam case and was also in recent documentaries on Son of Sam, was also one of the main detectives in the Seda Zodiac case. (Joe Borelli was Chief of Detectives at that time also) As far as your inquiry on the initial meeting with Michael Carr, it seems it would have been more along the lines of the latter you mentioned - "I would bet the conversation was more like this: “Do you play D&D? I play with a few guys and if you want to join our group... Did you see “The Exorcist?” Everything in that movie is real!”
Berkowitz, in his online blog from prison, mentions the following: "In 1975, however, I met some guys at a party who were, I later found out, heavily involved in the occult. I had always been fascinated with witchcraft, satanism, and occult things since I was a child. When I was growing up I watched countless horror and satanic movies, one of which was Rosemary’s Baby. That movie in particular totally captivated my mind."
Movies like "Rosemary's Baby" and "The Exorcist" brought the topic of the occult to the mainstream. It would not be surprising in the 1970s to hear the topic of the occult being discussed at parties and dinner tables openly then. The topic could be an ice breaker for conversation. Better than talking about the weather!
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Post by Admin Horan on Feb 19, 2020 7:06:51 GMT -6
Or--someone actually SENT David to that particular party. For example, Fred Cowan. Or maybe O'Gorman. Or Weiss. Or "Peter Shane." Four guys he apparently met at work, as a security guard, taxi/limo driver, and amateur "volunteer firefighter." Why do I think so? Because, the alternative theory is, David "randomly" joined a cult that all four of those guys apparently already happened to belong to. Someone in the Army must have suggested he apply at IBI Security, because he did, within a couple of days of getting home. He already knew people at Co-Op City, because he lived there before he enlisted.
I suggest it went more like this: Berkowitz was already friends with O'Gorman and/or Weiss and/or "Shane." He wanted to join their little "club.' They said, "Well, David, you need training, first. Join the Army, go to 'Nam, and when you get back..." Berkowitz specifically volunteered for combat. But the war was winding down, so he only made it to the 17th Inf Regiment (the ORIGINAL "Special Forces,") in Korea, who had just been pulled out after spearheading the Cambodia Incursion. Someone then transferred him to Fort Knox, where he was trained as a Baptist "street missionary." Then, within a couple of days of his discharge, he was hired by IBI. Then he ended up in the home of Cowan co-worker Jack Cassara (whom Berkowitz accused of being the cult's honcho in Westchester County, giving orders to Sam Carr.) In other words, it was not a question of randomly showing up at a party and comparing Satanic bubblegum cards. It was a long-term PLAN to recruit and train Berko to be some kind of hitman or whatever. Then he was introduced to Michael Carr, or whoever, through John Carr, when he was "ready." Something along those lines.
That's my current working hypothesis, FWIW.
Thanks for posting! We'll get to the bottom of this cesspool, yet!
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Post by louclou on Mar 11, 2020 23:01:01 GMT -6
I might have gotten the name wrong Paul B. was Ken of the "Barbie and Ken murders" Russell Williams (I think) was in high ranking Canadian military, murdered 2 women...him and Paul (Ken) were known friends. P.B.(Ken) Dad was also military. Not that it means anything just another coincidence, I guess.(?) It doesn't pertain to "son of Sam" directly. Just what I was referring to in previous post. Jim Jones my take on him kind of leans towards possible test mission. Maybe way off but the Kool aid was laced doubt that was a 1st...just seems plausible. I have a lot of thoughts about Jim Jones acted totally alone is not one! His son was off playing basketball, just lucky? Know for the actual topic, I need to go back for actual facts and will post them. On one of the murders a witness stated seeing 2 men and a yellow Volkswagen. Not that it was Bundy. It's also not an account that is often used, because of maybe two, one for sure other witness(es).
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Post by louclou on Mar 11, 2020 23:31:00 GMT -6
Found this on timeline much faster than anticipated. For what it's worth if anything. I think it's a strange choice for someone wanting to be low key\blend in. Yellow? School buses and taxi's to be noticed. Volkswagens also distinct IMO. Maybe so they could find each other, joking?
((This crime scene had all the hallmarks of the Son of Sam. Robert Violante and his date, Stacey Moscowitz were shot in their car. The gun was again the infamous 44-bulldog revolver.
Violante was partially blinded and Stacey Moscowitz died a day later. But this time, there was a witness. Tommy Zaino, also parked with his date right in front of the victims' car, got a look at the shooter. There was another sketch and witnesses said they saw a yellow Volkswagen making a getaway.
It was early August 1977 and the killer had been on the prowl for more than a year. There were six dead and seven wounded. No one could escape the Son of Sam. He was everywhere, and cops all over the city were on the lookout for that yellow Volkswagen. But the dragnet produced nothing.))
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Post by Omega on Mar 13, 2020 8:42:22 GMT -6
The yellow Volkswagen has always, of course, been a central part of the Son of Sam saga.
Professor Horan mentioned this in one of the Stones Unturned podcasts he did earlier on the Lawrence Klausner book. As Prof. Horan observes Klausner's book (published in 1981) is the polar opposite of Maury Terry's "The Ultimate Evil" book. Klausner sticks with the lone gunman story with no potential accomplices.
What is interesting in the Klausner book, and noted in the podcast, was a NY Police Officer was under suspicion as a suspect while the SOS was ongoing in 1977. Even fellow police officers were suspicious of this individual - Mike Speros.
Speros owned a yellow VW and had vanity plates "GRK 44". The "GRK" was supposedly for Speros being Greek. The "44" side can let the imagination run wild!
Speros was supposedly under tremendous stress for the suspicions others had about him being involved. At the time, of the Moskowitz/Violante shooting, he was suppose to be up in Cape Cod to "get away from things". However, it was noted that he had returned to NY and was in town when the shooting happened.
When you cross reference to Maury's "The Ultimate Evil" on page 70, eyewitnesses, at the time, describe partial license plate numbers on the yellow VW speeding away from the Brooklyn scene. The partials were "4-GUR" or "4-GVR". Another witness claimed the number was "463". Police used these partials when running for potential matches in New York, New Jersey and NCIC databases.
Even though the numbers seemed to be first on the plate and also eyewitnesses seemed to agreed that the number sequence started with three numbers, it is curious that the part of the plate that witnesses caught contained a "4" a "G" and an "R". The Speros plate number again was GRK-44.
This, and it seems anything else affiliated with the yellow VW, was rendered moot when Berkowitz was arrested on August 10th, 1977
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