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Post by kmik on Jun 1, 2019 9:03:59 GMT -6
I'm not sure what about the crime scene makes people think it was staged. These people were bound and murdered and left where they were killed. If the victims were moved around in that small space I would think it was because their body was in the killers way and they rolled or pushed it out of their way. Sue's ankles and wrists were tied tightly together (so that her knees were bent not spread open) with her body facing the couch. I would think if someone wanted to leave her in sexual position they would have turned her front side to face Dana.
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Jun 2, 2019 16:46:27 GMT -6
Post by kmik on Jun 2, 2019 16:46:27 GMT -6
Sue was originally left by the killer(s) covered with this blanket and a sheet from the girls bedroom and this is how LE found her.
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Staging
Jul 2, 2019 16:29:02 GMT -6
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Post by snoho17 on Jul 2, 2019 16:29:02 GMT -6
I'll have to double check but I had read that sue had been moved from a more degrading position. We'd also discussed movement of Dana. Staging occurs to throw off an investigation, Posing of victims is a personal thing ie humiliation of victims, personal fantasy of killer. I wonder what those useless leg bindings were for
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Staging
Jul 2, 2019 16:59:05 GMT -6
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Post by snoho17 on Jul 2, 2019 16:59:05 GMT -6
Also misdirection by staging would be used to point in a definite direction of motive. The interrupted burglary seems to be a go too.
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Post by kmik on Jul 2, 2019 20:33:32 GMT -6
I know it has been discussed about Sue being "moved" but I'm just going by the crime scene photos. There is a photo of her with the blanket over her and a photo after they took it off. Why would the police move her out of a degrading position since the photos were for the police not the public? If she was moved out of a degrading position before the police got there (by Sheila, Jaime, Don, Justin, Ricky, or Tina?) how would we know since it would have happened before the police got there?
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Staging
Jul 2, 2019 20:50:26 GMT -6
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Post by snoho17 on Jul 2, 2019 20:50:26 GMT -6
What I recall is the police believe she was originally posed in a degrading position and an unknown person moved (and covered?) her before her discovery. Someone was basically slut shaming her either out of anger or trying to justify their crime. Dana was also thought to have expired in one position and been moved to another, though most likely for a different reason
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Post by raemen2 on Dec 26, 2019 14:27:53 GMT -6
I find the crime scene eerily reminiscent of the Sharon Tate murders. Helter Skelter was published in 1974 and remained a best seller for many years. I remember reading it in the late 70’s when I was a teenager. The book included graphic pictures of the crime scenes....I do believe the killer(s) made an awkward attempt to recreate the vibe of the Manson murders.
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camfaults
New Member
Researching cold cases of California.
Posts: 46
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Staging
Dec 27, 2019 0:07:41 GMT -6
Post by camfaults on Dec 27, 2019 0:07:41 GMT -6
I find the crime scene eerily reminiscent of the Sharon Tate murders. Helter Skelter was published in 1974 and remained a best seller for many years. I remember reading it in the late 70’s when I was a teenager. The book included graphic pictures of the crime scenes....I do believe the killer(s) made an awkward attempt to recreate the vibe of the Manson murders. I agree! I had the same thought when I saw the crime scene photo of Sue. Good point about the publication of Helter Skelter. Two years later, in 1976, Steve Railsback played Charles Manson in the movie. Looking at the Wikipedia page about the movie, it was made for TV and aired two nights, April 1 & 2, on CBS.
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Post by Admin Horan on Dec 27, 2019 9:44:30 GMT -6
Weeeelllll...there is one hypothesis that explains both the condition of Dana's body, and the possibility the other boys didn't wake up--it wasn't all that noisy, because the the strangulation of Dana and the bludgeoning of Johnny (probably with a baseball bat) DIDN'T happen in 28. It happened somewhere else, probably at one of the 10,000 "parties" going on in Plumas that weekend. I think something with Dana got to the point where someone--maybe even Johnny--put him in a "sleeper" hold until he passed out. Unfortunately, it's not all that uncommon for the victim's arteries to stay cramped shut, resulting in death. They may not have even noticed right away that he was dead. Livor mortis suggests he spent a couple of hours in a sitting position before his body was placed face down on the floor of 28. Then, maybe in reaction to Dana's death, or maybe, to stop him choking Dana, someone hit Johnny on the side of the head with a baseball bat. He wasn't killed, but he didn't wake up, either. After a couple of hours...
Now, what do you do? You panic, or someone panics, because they can't call the police/ambulance and report two dead bodies in Tom's living room for various reasons. You can't dump the bodies out in the woods because police will know they need to find the original crime scene. And half the county knows (whether they tell or not) about the party, sooooo...how about, in your "acid-trip" state of mind, you come up with the brilliant plan of taking them back to 28 and making it look like the whole thing went down there? Not a bad plan, if you're a career ne'er do well and high as a kite. 2-3 minutes, in and out, quiet as mice, and maybe Sheila (who snuck out with Alyssa to go to the party) goes in first to make sure Sue and the kids are in bed asleep...But then, Sue wakes up and stumbles out into the living room just a minute too soon...sooooooo, you get her beaten into submission, tie her up, gag her, and tell her, "Keep your mouth shut, and Tina will be okay." But then, someone comes into the living room later and finishes off Sue. Who? Justin? Or Sheila? She had a motive--she's the ONLY person in Plumas who we KNOW benefitted from SUE's death. And lied about it, along with her Uncle Don, to police. You take Tina out to Feather Falls campground. Later, you go back for her, but she's run off, you can't find her--and again, you can't call police. She made it as far as Camp 18, passed out from stress and hunger, and died from exposure. Or, maaayybe hanged herself with the belt from the pink coat. Who knows.
One of the things I give McNarie credit for is going to Keddie to check if Phillip's confession fit. It didn't fit 28--but it DID fit Tom S's cabin, across the back yard. And Chuck and Henry (Tom's brother-in-law) admit they were there that night. And didn't leave until 4:30ish. Chuck looks like he's ready to hang himself in Josh's interview. And his "friends" started calling Henry "Keddie machete" for SOME reason.
Fits all the known evidence, including the boys' statements. And Phillip's. Even Justin's. Explains why no unusual (for a house full of teenagers on a Saturday night) noise in 28. Why no evidence of intruders--they were in and out. Why no strange vehicles parked in front of 28--they were parked in front of Tom's house. Nothing suspicious about Henry's truck at his brother-in-law Tom's house, anyway. And Chuck and Henry just carried the boys across the back yards. They weren't that big. A gandy dancer and lumberjack could pack them across the yard no problem. One of them dropped a pack of cigarettes from his shirt pocket in the rush to get done and get out. And the reason Dana's duffel bag/diabetic kit wasn't found in 28 is because it was left behind at the original crime scene.
Why not dump the bodies in Johnny's basement bedroom? Maybe because the door was locked. And Johnny's key was back at the original crime scene. But most likely because CHUCK AND HENRY DIDN'T KNOW JOHNNY'S ROOM WAS IN THE BASEMENT.
No one can blab about the party because two murders (Johnny wasn't dead yet, but...) happened there. Ricky and Greg can't blab (for at least three years) because they think Tina's life depends on their silence. Even if they did wake up and look around when Sue screamed. Which they probably wouldn't. By the time they find out Tina's been found dead...Justin doesn't remember much because he was wacked out on Bo's antiseizure pills, which Marty admitted he had to hide from Justin and Casey. Tom S can't call bullshit on Chuck and Henry's story about not getting to his house until 3:30-4:00am because a murder happened in his living room. Jim Seabolt can't blab about seeing Chuck and Henry leaving Keddie at 4:30 that morning because Alyssa is an accomplice to murder. Don Davis can't blab about WHICH "member of the family" called him Sunday morning because Sheila (for one) is guilty as hell. The Meeks boys can't admit they picked up Dana and Johnny on the way back from the college because when they got home, after calling Sue to tell her the boys were on their way back to Keddie, their sister took the family car and drove herself, Phillip, Johnny, and Dana all back to Keddie to meet her girlfriend and go to the party, where she was an accomplice to murder. And that's why Phillip had to lie about how HE got back to Keddie. And why ALL these people, including the Meeks "family," have to frame SOMEONE else, Marty and Bo, for the whole thing. And, of course, all the accomplices are also keeping quiet for Tina's sake.
The funny thing is, if you assume EVERYONE ELSE in that "town" more or less told police the truth about what they did and did not know and do that weekend, it ALL fits. And the crime scene does look "staged" to a certain extent because it WAS staged, to a certain extent.
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Post by kmik on Dec 27, 2019 19:21:01 GMT -6
Tom, I could be wrong (this is from memory) but Dmac didn't go to Keddie until 2011 - about 7 years after Cabin 28 had been demolished and 30 years after the murders. I do remember he had a problem with the water heater in 28 but can't remember why - from memory I think it was because he said it wasn't in the basement. Either way the PCSO checked Phillips story in 1981 (it appears that no matter where it was there were no numbers scratched on it):
In a 2008 post on another forum Marty's brother posted a copy of a lengthy post written by Josh Hancock from Jesse's forum and it Josh said,
Maybe Josh was lying or misinformed but Justin did claim he was in the living room down by Sue and also told during hypnosis what color the blankets were on the beds in the girls room - so I don't have a hard time believing that he or he and Tina covered Sue.
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Post by Admin Horan on Dec 28, 2019 6:10:18 GMT -6
Right--they checked Phillip's story against Cabin 28. But Tom's cabin was built without a basement, just a crawlspace, just as Phillip described. Police didn't check Tom S's cabin because they didn't know they needed to. Only 28.
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Staging
Dec 28, 2019 7:40:59 GMT -6
Post by kmik on Dec 28, 2019 7:40:59 GMT -6
I know Phillip's story is "strange" and one that I go back to a lot but I think it's a stretch to believe he was under Tom's cabin scratching on the water heater instead of 28 just because he said he was "under the house" instead of "in the basement".
I think Dmac thought that Don Stoy was a liar who couldn't have checked the water heater under 28 because there wasn't one under 28. Well if Phillip knew which cabin the murders took place then in (which he claimed he did) then he certainly should have known which cabin he was under.
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jdub
New Member
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Staging
Dec 28, 2019 20:17:28 GMT -6
Post by jdub on Dec 28, 2019 20:17:28 GMT -6
I adhere to the theory that LE did not check the correct cabin's water heater as well as that of two "murders" having been committed in a next close "party" ? What Party? Cabin! And what about the terminology in the report of Phillips interview?! Paraphrasing: "finally escaped after a long FIGHT, at the airport" (or flight, running, to the airport.?)
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Staging
Dec 28, 2019 22:14:40 GMT -6
Post by kmik on Dec 28, 2019 22:14:40 GMT -6
The Phillip story is very interesting to me but I guess we'll never know if he was or was not involved or if he just invented these stories based off what his cousins, the Meeks, were saying about the murders. How in the world would he have remembered a license number but not what cabin he went under - so Cabin 28 is where the police searched (if they searched others, and they could have, we don't know). I myself don't believe he scratched down anything because several things Phillip told could not have happened. Here is what Josh posted in 2010 about Phillip:
The strange story of Phillip Postby jhancock » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:09 pm
Cabin 28: The Keddie Murders Part II covers two confessions to the homicides: one in which the confessor provided accurate details, time frames and motive; and another in which the confessor provided almost no details at all. However, these weren't the only suspicious people connected to the Keddie Murders. One of these people that the documentary does not cover is a young man named Phillip.
The following documents describe Phillip's connection to the Keddie Murders:
Document One:
4-13-81. I contacted Joel F.H. who works for Sierra Center Liquors. Joel said he had been working at the liquor store around noon on 4-12-81 and had see a young Indian male in front of the store, and he had been naming the people that had been killed. That had been some two to three hours before he had heard anything about it on the radio, and thought it strange. The subject was ID'd later as Phillip, when I contacted the store owner, Keith N.
Document Two:
On April 29th, 1981, I was working as a radio dispatcher. At approximately 1410 hours I monitored a conversation between Phillip and his mother, who was visiting him. Due to radio transmissions and phone calls, I did not hear the entire conversation. I heard Phillip tell his mother than he was in the house when it happened. His mother said, "Phillip, you're hallucinating, you were in church that night." Phillip said when he left the church he went there with Marty Smartt and two other guys. He spoke of Tina being there. He said, "Someone asked me to hand him the scissors and I did." Phillip said, "Maybe I should be hypnotized," and his mother replied, "No, don't do that." Phillip said that afterward he ran to the Back Door Bar and tried to tell someone who was coming out the door, then he just ran.
Document Three:
On 5-1-81, Phillip was interviewed at the sheriff's office.
On 4-11-81 Phllip was at Feather River College, in a fairly intoxicated state. About 2100 hrs Wade M. gave him a ride to the Methodist Church. After being there for an undetermined time, he decided to go to the Exxon Mini-Mart. While at Exxon he met up with Johnny and Dana. They were getting a ride from three people in a pick-up. The pick-up was described as between a 1954 and 1957 Chev., dark green with something similar to a roll bar in the back. He said one of the men was named Marty Smartt, and lived at the end of the road in Keddie. He owns a small red station wagon (this matches the description of Marty Smartt). Phillip did not know the other two men. After arriving in Keddie, Phillip said that while looking through a window of the Sharp residence he saw Johnny get his throat cut, Dana get hit over the head with a hammer, and Sue being choaked [sic]. Phillip said that at one point he ran to the Keddie Back Door Bar where he saw a man that was locking up the bar. He tried to tell the man what was happening. The man got into a blue car that looked like a Mercedes, and drove away. Phillip returned to the Sharp residence to try to help Tina. At one time he was hiding under the house and he scratched the license number from the pick-up onto the hot water heater. Phillip told of a long fight that ended up at Ganser Airport, where he got away. The three men still had Tina.
On 5-1-81, Sgt. Stoy checked the hot water heater under the Sharp residence. No license number was scratched on it.
On 5-4-81 I telephone Jack B., who locked up the Back Door Bar on the night of 4-11-81. He said no one tried to talk to him as he was leaving the bar. Jack said he might have been driving a bluish silver Mercedes on the night of 4-11-81. He drives a lot of different cars, and was trying to sell a Mercedes around 4-11-81. He said he would check his records to see if he could determine when he was driving the Mercedes.
Document Four:
Interview: Trisha D.P. 5/19/81. I contacted Trisha at Quincy High School regarding her friendship and possible knowledge of Dana Wingate. Joey C. had told me that Dana had dated Trisha. Trisha told me that she had gone out with Dana for about two weeks last September, but she didn't know if he was involved with drugs. Trisha said she never knew Dana to get into fights. I asked Trisha about Phillip and she said he used to come to her house and she did not like him. Trisha said that Phillip could be mean when he was drunk which was most of the time. Trisha also said that Phillip did not like Dana because Dana was taking out Trisha. Trisha did say that rumors said Tina hated her mom. She did not have much information at all.
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Post by Admin Horan on Dec 29, 2019 8:03:35 GMT -6
Well, even if you throw out Phillip's two "confessions," his knowledge that a smooth, narrow blade (including possibly scissors) was used on Johnny, his knowing the about the victims Sunday morning, and every lie we know the Meeks's told, we're still left with the evidence that the boys were assaulted somewhere else and brought back to Cabin 28. I'm not saying it's conclusive, but it all fits. And it's simple, actually.
Let's start over:
1. When police arrive at Cabin 28, Sue's brother Don Davis is already there. They ask him, "What are you doing here?" He says, "I got a phone call." They ask "Who called you?" He says, "A member of the family." Now, either he's lying, or he's telling the truth. Which one makes him and his family look less guilty? If no member of the family called him, then why WAS he there? He had to be telling the truth. But WHICH member of the family? It HAD to be either Sheila, Tina, or one of the boys. And they HAD to call him from Cabin 28. The phone was off the hook. IF a call was made from Cabin 28 and the caller didn't hang up, then the local telephone office could have traced that call. I'm betting they did. But that report hasn't been leaked. And the only reason Don would fudge over the identity of the caller, at that time Sunday morning, talking to police, is if the call came from Sheila. No reason to fudge about a call from Tina, and no reason to fudge about a call from the boys. But we know, from other parts of their statements, that Sheila and Don, AFTER Don took Sheila away from the crime scene and coached her story, we know they both lied about Sue and Jim. Now, why would they do that, AND fudge about the Sunday morning phone call, IF they want police to catch the killers? Also, if the call came from Tina, then why was there confusion that morning about which victim was under the sheets? No possibility that it was Tina, IF Don got a call from Tina. So it HAD to be Sheila. And apparently, it was BEFORE she went back to the Seabolts and got Zonita to go call the police from the Albins cabin. Otherwise, there's no way Don got there that early. But if she called him at 8:00-8:05, then THAT explains why he was there at the time he was there.
2. Sheila was BOTH the last person to admit seeing the victims alive, AND the one to discover the bodies. And her behavior from that moment forward to this day is suspicious, at best.
3. Sheila is the ONLY person in the whole world we KNOW benefitted from the deaths of any of these people. Not the only potential suspect, but the only one who BENEFITTED.
4. She couldn't have done it alone. She HAD to have accomplices.
5. The Meeks's had almost as big a grudge against Sue as Sheila did. Wade is the ONLY one with any kind of "alibi." But plenty of the rest of their stories are suspicious, at the very best. And incriminating at the worst.
6. Henry Thompson's "friends" were, according to Henry himself, already calling him "Keddie Machete" BEFORE he confessed to his roommate. WHY? The most generous thing you can say about his statements to police is, they're awfully incriminating.
7. That's awfully funny, because, Sheila was in contact with Henry's sister Saturday morning, about party plans that night. Minutes later, the person who gave the boys a ride to the Exxon saw Henry's red pickup there.
8. That's awfully funny, because, witnesses saw the boys hanging around the Exxon early Saturday night, but NOT heading toward Keddie. They disappeared just after 9:00 pm.
9. That's awfully funny, because, if Henry and Chuck drove to Kathy Goddu's house in Livermore, and stayed for half an hour, and drove back, they'd get back to the Exxon just after 9:00. And she said it could have been Saturday, not Friday.
10. That's awfully funny, because they admitted LEAVING Keddie about 4:30 Sunday morning. Probably because they knew Jim Seabolt SAW them there. They claimed they ARRIVED in Keddie a few minutes before, but that story is suspicious, at best. Funny, because, 8 hours is a hell of a long drive to stay 30 minutes and leave. Funny, because, Saturday morning, just before noon, Donna gave the boys a ride to the Exxon and there was Henry's truck. Minutes after Sheila talked to Henry's sister about some kind of party.
11. The boys disappear from the Exxon by 9:20ish. They did NOT go to Cabin 28. Or the Sharp boys and Justin would have remembered. Neighbors would have heard. So, they went somewhere else. Where? And how did they get from there to Cabin 28? And when?
12. There is only ONE reason why the people who took the boys to Wherever never told police--they were guilty. As accomplices, at the very least. Most likely, they were directly responsible for the bloody mess that was dumped later in Cabin 28. If it didn't start at Wherever, then there was no reason not to tell police. The whole thing didn't happen in 28, because the whole thing took more than a couple of hours, according to the autopsies. So it started at Wherever.
13. Phillip Shearer apparently knew three things that fit: A. A narrow, smooth blade, just like a pair of scissors, was used to stab Johnny in the throat. Everyone in town knew about the butcher knife and the hammer. And even the bent serrated steak knife. But Phillip contradicted all that with ACCURATE information. B. He apparently knew the identities of the victims even before anyone else in town. What other "Indian" in town could POSSIBLY have known that? ANOTHER Indian who had direct knowledge of the crimes? That HAD to be Phillip. C. He knew that Tina had left with the killers, and was still alive hours after the murders.
That's a lot. Way more than ANY other person in town ever told police. A lot.
14. BUT Phillip then confused police about being in the crawlspace. You couldn't get into the crawlspace of 28 from the half-basement. But he COULD have been describing the crawlspace under Tom S's cabin. The cabin Chuck and Henry admitted--eventually--being at that night.
15. Sue was tied up using a clove hitch--a knot used all day, every day by lumberjacks. Chuck was a lumberjack/forestry laborer. Who had specifically spent time at Camp 18 planting trees. You can see the [relatively younger] trees he planted there on Google Earth.
16. Johnny was stabbed rather expertly in the carotid with a knife that could have been scissors--or a hunter's "stick knife." There is a photo of Chuck from that time with a deer he's just killed. He's holding a stick knife in his hand.
17. Lots of men in Plumas were lumberjacks and experienced hunters. But the funny thing is, Henry Thompson ALSO knew exactly where Camp 18 was, because HE had worked there, when the railroad tore up the old tracks and turned the road bed into a regular road through all that swampy ground that Chuck's crew drove over to get out there to plant those trees. Not that many people in Plumas could drive straight out there in the middle of the night. But those two could. That's REALLY funny.
18. Dana had been tied up with tape (the kind of tape used by boxers and wrestlers to tape their hands. The kind of tape Dana would have carried around in his duffel bag that also contained his diabetic kit,) punched in the face, and his pants undone (pulled up when his body was discovered, but still undone) and been whacked pretty hard across the ass with a broom handle. What the hell does any of that have to do with Sue breaking up Marty's marriage? Whether or not Dana really was snitching for Gamberg, you'd have to be a complete idiot not to THINK he was.
Dana had been strangled, not with a ligature, and not with the hands. It must have been by an expert "choke hold." Probably during or right after Dana broke some of his bonds. Why? Why would anyone tie him up, punch him up, whip his ass, then choke him? But not Johnny? NONE of those things had been done to Johnny.
Johnny's hand was bruised as though HE had punched someone in the face. Johnny was also on the wrestling team, where Gamberg was coaching him in things like self-defense and putting people in choke holds. Johnny was hit in the head with a baseball bat (that was not in Cabin 28) then fake "tied up" later. At some point, probably by accident, Dana died. And was dead for a couple of hours or more before he was moved. Then, HE WAS MOVED. Period. How far? Well, this brouhaha could not have taken place in 28 without waking up the Sharp boys. Maybe they lied about not waking up, buuuuut, maybe they told the truth. It seems they DID tell the truth about everything else. So, he was probably moved from a different location. But the boys were not moved by vehicle, according to the neighbors. They were carried from SOMEWHERE that was not directly in front of 28. Like, Tom S's cabin. That had a crawlspace. Just like Phillip said he hid in during the brouhaha. And yes, Virginia, Johnny WAS bled out IN Cabin 28--just like Phillip said he saw, standing outside, probably keeping watch. Somebody had to stand out front, keeping watch. Phillip, who knew several details not known to the public, said he was standing there. I believe him.
19. The rest happened as I described in the post above. But, there was blood found on the inside AND outside door knobs of the FRONT door. If Tina left with Chuck and Henry, they all would have used the back door, both in and out. Who, with blood on their hand, used the front door? Justin got blood on his hand(s.) But he didn't leave--as far as we know. Maybe he did. Who else?
Well, we KNOW Sheila went in and out the front door. She claimed she didn't touch anything. But how else did blood get on the front door knobs? She must have touched something. Someone with bloody hands grabbed two blankets from Tina's bed and put them over Sue. Someone finished off Sue--after Chuck and Henry left. Someone wiped the bloody fingerprints from the butcher knife used to stab Sue. Whoever used that knife futzed around and futzed around before they finally got the job done. Not like Johnny. Not at all. We know Sheila lied about a lot things, including her motive. I asked Gamberg, who claims he spent every day, all day, going over the case files, "what time did the M.E. think the victims died?" His answer was, "Uuuuuuhhhh...I don't know."
I'm not the only one to think this. Henry's friends were calling him Keddie Machete. Police dragged Chuck through Cabin 28 to see his reaction. NO WAY they would take him there unless they considered him a suspect. On Josh's "documentary," 20 some odd years later, just from remembering, Chuck looks ready to hang himself. Imagine how he looked when the police dragged him there. And what's reeeeaaaaally funny is, listening to Sheila repeatedly giggle when she and brother are going through the cabin years later. It's almost like Chuck is sorry, and Sheila isn't. Funny. You know?
Until I see hard evidence to the contrary, I don't see any other explanation that fits the physical evidence and all the known witness "statements." Is it enough to get a conviction? No. But I'm sure I could have had Chuck and Henry held on three non-bailable charges of first degree murder and three-four non-bailable charges of kidnapping at the time while I finished building my case. And I guarantee I would have found out where they took Tina. Could I have gotten Sheila extradited once she left the state? I don't know. That would have depended on the confessions I beat out of Chuck and Henry.
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