ekh
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Post by ekh on Jul 1, 2018 17:02:26 GMT -6
Ohhhhh, I see what you're saying. The hoaxer had established that he wasn't the killer by stating he was persons in the letters that couldn't be the killer. This would be another reason why there was never a letter about Lake Berryessa because there simply was no "secret" person he could claim to be and the one person who he could pretend to be actually does look very guilty, so he couldn't "prove" he wasn't the killer. Come Paul Stine, he then includes a piece of shirt that wasn't from the killer. It's almost as if he needed someway to prove he wasn't the killer in order to write a "Zodiac" letter. In fact, since one of the letters that included a piece of shirt, supposedly, was seen as a hoax by Mel Nicolai, that would mean they all possibly were since the pieces were all from the same vertical slice. So now instead of simply claiming to be someone that couldn't be the killer, and maybe he didn't know about the guy Fouke and Zelms saw yet (the letter was mailed immediately), he actually sends proof that he wasn't the killer. Interesting. Was this a very clever and covert way to let investigators know it was a hoax while trying to maintain a public perception of a killer on the loose ?
Was this the moment the genuine hoax died ?
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Post by Admin Horan on Jul 2, 2018 15:42:31 GMT -6
Well, remember, in the last letter (at least for some time) written by Snook, "Zodiac" backtracks from his all-too credible threat to shoot up a school bus, and instead, issues a completely unrealistic threat to dig up a well-traveled California road and bury a massive bomb under it. At just about the same time, Lonergan slipped a sample of Snook's handprinting off to Sacramento. Coincidentally enough, someone else took over writing "Zodiac" letters.
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ekh
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Post by ekh on Jul 4, 2018 11:53:04 GMT -6
What was very interesting to me about the hoax theory is how you have to throw away everything you know, or think you know, and look at it with the absence of a serial killer, as if someone simply turned the lights on in a dark room. Follow for a sec; the first letter could not have been written by the killer because the real killer would not have known about Andy Nickolatos Jr. driving away slowly. And it wasn't in the newspaper. So only someone with access to the police files would have written that letter. So only a relatively small number of people would have been able to write that letter; police, maybe a newspaper reporter. Professor Horan found someone who had access to those files and he happens to have hand printing that is identical to the "Zodiac." And now that very same person happens to look remarkably like a sketch of "Zodiac." This is one of the many "funny" coincidences in this case.
The question of whether Hal Snook actually was a "Zodiac" is an open ended question as no one definitively says that he is or why Paul Stine was killed. The exact purpose of the letters is still something of a mystery, but we can look at what resulted from them and make what I feel to be, rather educated guesses. Who knows, maybe the goal of them wasn't really achieved. Maybe the letter writer just wanted to screw with people. But you've come this far with an open mind about the case, and you're right, we don't have DNA type evidence but you do have eyewitnesses and a partial print that I would be very interested in knowing who it belonged to. And maybe Hal Snook didn't do anything other than write some letters. But I think there is indeed a possibility of it being true. Again, the reason why Paul Stine was murdered (if any) is still a mystery. All we can look at is the result(s) in the context of the act achieving it's goal. By that very same token, I am still VERY open to the possibility of this being a cab robbery gone wrong as stated in the books.
My point is, all this stuff needs to be looked at far, far better than it has in the past. And I think the question posed by this thread is valid. It's possible.
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Post by Admin Horan on Jul 5, 2018 9:58:56 GMT -6
Harelykwin: Have you read my books? There is no room for doubt that Snook wrote the first 4 "Zodiac" letters. He had proven access to the exact same police files that that Author of the letters used, and his handprinting is a perfect match.
Did he kill any of the victims? The only one he fits is Stine--Snook's face is a perfect match for the composite sketch.
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ekh
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Post by ekh on Aug 2, 2018 21:42:08 GMT -6
I finally was able to put my finger on why the likeness is so compelling to me. If you take any male from the 60's with a dark crew cut and put a pair of glasses on him, they already look about 80-85% like the Paul Stine sketch. The crew cut and glasses are the two most distinguishing features of that sketch. They overpower everything else. This is why so many people "look" like the Zodiac.
"The funny thing" about the Hal Snook photo is, he's not wearing glasses, and you can't see his crew cut, and yet he still looks like the sketch despite the absence of the two most distinguishing features.
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Post by Admin Horan on Aug 4, 2018 9:17:57 GMT -6
Right. And I have photos from the late 60s I need to get on here showing Snook's crewcut, complete with widow's peak.
The funny thing is, Paul's brother looked even MORE like the sketch. Right down to the reddish-blond crewcut and widow's peak. But he supposedly had an alibi--no car (he lived in Modesto, their hometown.) But-he was a mechanic, who could EASILY have "borrowed" a customer's car. I think the only reason he wasn't pursued further as a suspect is lack of apparent motive. Also, I'm assuming that neither Fouke and Zelms nor the kids identified him. But we have NO way of knowing if they were shown photos, or if they saw him on TV being interviewed about his daring the killer to come after him.
FWIW, I would NOT go so far as to suggest that Snook killed Stine, if it weren't for the handprinting match as corroborating evidence. Plus the killer's cool, deliberate, expert "cleaning" of the crime scene, etc.
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Post by sierra on Nov 22, 2018 17:13:59 GMT -6
This gets confusing.
Hal Snook started writing the Zodiac letters to stop/uncover corruption in the Police/Sheriff's Department, but then went to San Francisco and killed Stine for some unknown reason. Someone else wrote the Zodiac letters after Snook stopped writing them, and they most likely did it to protect Snook from appearing guilty for writing the first letters. A third person wrote the Stine letters and included a piece of his bloody shirt claiming to be the Zodiac to make it appear that he (the letter writer) couldn't be the Zodiac.
(I think I wrote all that right).
That makes it look like some type of conspiracy. If that is true then Snook might not have been trying to stop corruption in law enforcement when he wrote the first Zodiac letters. Maybe he was trying to get rid of the (corrupt) competition.
Things I think are true in the Zodiac case:
Hal Snook's handwriting looks similar to the handwriting of the first Zodiac letters: He probably wrote them or someone copied his hand writing.
The same person didn't commit the five murders attributed to Zodiac.
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Post by Admin Horan on Nov 30, 2018 8:17:28 GMT -6
Sierra:
Yeah. In fact, a previously unpublished hi-res scan of the original repro camera copy of the Stine letter clearly shows it WAS traced. Marker over pencil, and the pencil then erased. Plus a whooooooole lot more info about Snook has come to light. We will share all that here over Xmas break.
I'd hate to think Hal murdered anybody, but whoever shot Stine seems to know police procedure. And from all we've found out lately, he may indeed have had a motive. But logistically, that's a terribly complicated hypothesis. On the other hand, my original hypothesis, that Graysmith or some other Chronicle employee obtained the fare book and shirt scraps, is way simpler. And now that we have conclusive evidence the Stine letter was traced...
It turns out that Hal routinely wrote a lot of snarky letters to various editors. It may well be that those first four letters (July 31/Aug 2 1969) were a kind of black joke at LE's and the media's expense that uncorked a genie he hadn't counted on. But I think there was at least a little more to it than that. As we shall see.
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Post by intrepid on Mar 15, 2019 0:31:37 GMT -6
Prove to whom? I suggest that since he put "proof" in all the other letters that he Author of the letters was a hoaxer, not a killer, then the three specific pieces of shirt mailed in "Zodiac" letters actually prove that the Author was a hoaxer. How? Why? Easy. IF he had mailed in pieces from that first big rectangle of cloth that was torn off at the scene, then that would be evidence of guilt. the real purpose of grabbing two more pieces while the shirt was in the lab was to prove, if necessary (if he got caught) that the Author was a hoaxer. Even if he was the killer, he could prove that the Author of the letters "wasn't." How do we know for certain that a piece of the shirt was removed from Stine at the crime scene? Are there crime scene photos that show Stine lying face-down as he was discovered with a piece of his shirt missing? Did anyone note in any report that a piece of the shirt was missing?
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Post by Admin Horan on Mar 15, 2019 6:27:41 GMT -6
Intrepid: THAT is the question. One of the "shocking truths" about the Zodiac case is just how lousy the SFPD was--and is. Dave Toschi was the worst homicide detective in the worst PD in the nation. And it shows in his "investigation" of the Stine murder. And that's what I think "Zodiac" was trying to call attention to. The Chronicle itself ran DAILY exposees on SFPD incompetence and corruption. In recent years, poor Detroit has overtaken SFPD as the worst metro PD in the country. But it's not because SFPD got better. Detroit simply got worse. I have asked some blood stain experts to review my theory, but they say they really need to examine the evidence directly in order to really be sure.
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Post by Brent on Apr 18, 2019 22:30:07 GMT -6
Just how certain can we be that the sketch is accurate? After all, isn’t the sketch based on kids who originally thought it was an African-American male?
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Post by Admin Horan on Apr 20, 2019 0:03:49 GMT -6
Hi, Brent! Well, first we need to keep in mind that we do not know that any "Negro Male Adult" description was ever actually broadcast. So, we don't know if the SFPD dispatcher ever thought the suspect was black. We only think that because Fouke claimed that in his "memo" typed 4 weeks later. For all we know, that was HIS mistake, and we don't know if he made that mistake at the time, or four weeks later. And that's one thing at the heart of this whole "mystery:" most police departments in those days simply did far less information gathering, recording, and reporting than today. We DO know that the sketch artist re-visited the three young witnesses a few days after the attack and they refined their descriptions/sketch of the suspect. They got (or at least reported) the BEST description BY FAR. And not just one person. THREE. They got a good, long look. They are, BY FAR, the LEAST likely to have been 'mistaken." We KNOW what Stine's killer looked like.
In many ways, the best documented "investigation" in the Bay Area "Zodiac" attacks was Lake Berryessa--and the funny thing is, "Zodiac" never wrote ANY letters about that one. And the funny thing is, Snook's meticulous work gives us far more to work with than the other three "cases" combined. And the funny thing is, noooooooo "Zodiac" letter EVER criticized Napa police.
But I want to make a big deal about your question--the point is not whether "I" (or anyone) can absolutely "prove" there was no "Zodiac Killer." I can't "prove" Bigfoot and the Tooth Fairy don't exist. The point is, there is NO evidence of ANY kind that there WAS a "Zodiac Killer." When I point out that ALL of the recorded witness/survivor descriptions are VERY different from case to case, most people (maybe not you) jump up and say, "Maybe they made a mistake!" But, that would require that ALL but ONE of those witnesses/reporting officers were "wrong." When I point out that NONE of the fingerprints match ANY of the others (and there were more than most people realize) those same people jump up and say "The fingerprints were botched!" or "He used fake fingerprints!" or some other ridiculous excuse. And so on and so on. It's exactly the same thing as Bigfoot or UFOs or angels--no matter hoooooooowwww many times hoaxes are revealed, there is always some excuse for continuing to believe. "But what about the pieces of Stine's shirt!" Read old issues of the SF Chronicle. EVERY DAY they screamed about rampant SFPD corruption and incompetence, including evidence tampering. "But not this case!" Etc, etc, etc. Robert Graysmith wrote a very entertaining book that was made into a very entertaining movie. But that was 90 percent (I'm NOT exaggerating--read my book) FICTION.
For seven years now, I have publicly (and privately. You would not believe what a shithead Tom Voigt is in real life) challenged the so-called Zodiac "experts" to point to ONE shred of actual evidence that actually links ANY two ACTUAL murders. But all they have ever come up with is excuses for fooling themselves. ALL of the ACTUAL witness statements, autopsy reports, fingerprints, and other physical evidence CLEARLY show that these murders were NOT committed by the same person. ALL of that evidence CLEARLY shows that the letters were some kind of hoax by a disillusioned Napa cop. Oh, believe me, I have prayed and prayed and prayed that someone, ANYONE could prove the letters were not a hoax, because then I SOLVED the "case." There is no doubt Snook wrote the letters.
The worst part is, there were REAL suspects in each of these murders, but no one cares about that. All they care about is their comic book character. So, I'll soon be wrapping up this website and publishing a NEW book and documentary series that claims Snook (along with his "accomplices") WAS the "Zodiac Killer." And no one will be able to prove me wrong. His military records, his handprinting, his face, and his unique position in Bay Area law "enforcement" will all prove me right.
...I've even got his fingerprints...
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Post by uaquruithinn on Nov 26, 2019 23:11:54 GMT -6
I just finished reading the 2nd of the 3 books: ZODIAC 1969 and 1986. Tomorrow I'll read ZODIAC MYTH. Right now it seems that Snook was bad and met Greysmith when Snook was in the Air Force and a Boy Scout leader and Greysmith was a Boy Scout or Explorer Scot on the same military base. That certainly doesn't mean Snook molested Greysmith even though Snook had a problem.
In mysteries there's the K.I.S.S. guidelines. Keeping it simple Snook, we should consider that Snook couldn't make a career in the military, couldn't make it as a tenured college professor, couldn't make it in the C.i.A. in spite of his wartime connections, couldn't make it to Sheriff or Under Sheriff, and couldn't make it in publishing. The only thing going for him was that the 4 Zodiac correspondences were intended for Greysmith. Meeting Greysmith in person or even arranging phone calls about police corruption including the Hell's Angel's would have gotten both of them killed.
There was no so-called Colonel Kurtz from Apacalypse Now who was really in Laos and later given a desk job in Washington helping Snook stop heroin coming to America. Again, Snook was smart enough to know the F.B.I. and C.i.A. would shut him down in a few days.
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Post by Admin Horan on Nov 28, 2019 5:33:46 GMT -6
Yes, there were TWO real-life people that John Milius supposedly based his Colonel Kurtz on. One was CIA officer Anthony "Tony Po" Poshepny, whom Snook knew from high school sports and studied with (and may have roomed with) at San Jose State University. Poshepny DID blow the whistle on Hmong leader Vang Pao and other CIA officers who were lining their own pockets with some of the money the CIA was helping them raise for their anti-Vietcong army through the sale of opium and heroin. Colonel Wendell Fertig, leader of the Philippine Scouts resistance on Mindanao, was a combat engineer (just like Snook) who organized and led the anti-Japanese guerillas on Mindanao until MacArthur returned. Fertig invented the roadside bomb made of fertilizer and diesel fuel that Zodiac threatened to use on a school bus. Fertig was so effective that MacArthur TWICE sent him direct orders to essentially "stop winning the war." Snook was assigned to the Philippine Scouts until he was rotated stateside and discharged. They have been used as anti-communist/anti-Muslim guerillas since the end of the war. The Cebuano characters sprinkled all through the Zodiac "cyphers" come from a specific dialect called "Eskaya" for the island whose tribe have been "covert" agents for American forces and business interests since the 1880s.
Any more questions?
Now, you're sort of right--IF they had seen the letters and cryptograms, a few veterans of WWII working in CIA or NSA may have recognized these elements in the Zodiac correspondence. Did they notice, and did they say anything? We don't know. Their jobs were SECRET, you know.
But that's not the funny thing. The funny thing is, a few HUNDRED or more members of the fairly huge Filipino-American community in the Bay Area (and all over California) should have recognized not only the Cebuano characters, but also, the Tad-Tad cult references to "the victims I have killed will become my slaves [in paradice.]" But there is no record of ANY letters to police or the newspapers about that. Only one tip from an American who knew a little bit about it. That's it.
THAT'S what's funny.
Now, here's a "simple" question for YOU: What's the point? What's the point of getting a long, repetitive, comic-book "message" about some obscure SE Asian warrior cult published on the "front pages" of the Chronicle, et al? And why IN CODE? A code that thousands of Filipinos would recognize and who knows how many could decipher from PAST EXPERIENCE? Check the website for Philippine Scouts veterans. Look how many of them immigrated to the US mainland. Forget the CIA. There were X number of former Philippine Scouts who had USED that cypher during the war. Does that suggest that THEY were the intended audience for this "cypher?" That makes a weird if not stupid (to the average Christian American) threat about, "Don't worry about getting murdered. Worry about being enslaved in the afterlife." I mean, who besides the Filipino community is supposed to "worry" about that? What's the point?
And what's "simple" about it?
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Eochaidh OghaChruithne
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Post by Eochaidh OghaChruithne on Nov 29, 2019 15:57:18 GMT -6
My dad was a combat engineer during WW2 in Europe until the Nazis surrendered and then shipped to Mindanao. The only thing he said about the Philippines was that they couldn't sit on the ground because it was always wet - they had to squat.
Snook went with what he had, knowledge of coding with Cebuano and which by the way Snook would have explained to the young Greysmith when they met at the Air Force base many years before. If it was Greysmith, then using that shared knowledge makes more sense than using coding which millions of former Boy Scouts learned. Even an alleged reference to gold can thereby be explained using Greysmith. Snook was a crooked cop in the most crooked department of law enforcement, narcotics, in a most crooked county and Sheriff's Department. The possible reference to gold would mean either narcotics or payoffs Snook had received. Snook was a lonely man and if he and Greysmith shared a secret then when Snook set up shop in the North Bay area and Greysmith in the South, Snook would have contacted him. The contact would have been very public until Snook decided to start writing the 4 letters to Greysmith/The Chronicle. Maybe, Snook and Greysmith went to the same gay bars until then. At the very least he owed Greysmith a beer.
From a Game Theory point of view (Goffman, 1969), Keith Power would have been brought in by Greysmith. But, he was just used and probably didn't suspect Snook as the letters' writer.
A funny and simple question is did Super Cop Snook who joined the department in 1960 and "watched" the drug problem grow in Napa, stop it, or even slow it down? Maybe, we should honour him for writing 4 letters after 4 young women were murdered in the Vallejo area and maybe also for him maybe murdering Stine so as to call attention to the drug problem in the North Bay area. Yet, I hesitate to do so considering Snook's results. He had no affect in stopping the Hell's Angle's there, no affect in stopping the drug problem there, no affect in slowing down the murders and child molesting by his criminal buddies in the area including those who joined the H.A. or were cops. Keep in mind that the drug problem in the area was meth, not Tony Po's Golden Triangle heroin.
Your 1st 2 books '69 and '89 are easy reads and I'm looking forward to reading Myth today.
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