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Post by Admin Horan on Nov 23, 2019 6:46:02 GMT -6
Yowza.
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Post by Admin Horan on Nov 23, 2019 6:50:29 GMT -6
Well, Bo had the ID of someone named, "Bobby Lake." That's one hell of a coincidence. I've been trying to find Dee Jay (that's apparently his legal name) Lake's family tree. No luck, except for his son Cee Jay. It's like he has no parents. And I can't help but wonder why. But I'll bet credits to Navy beans he has a brother named Robert. And Dee Jay changed his name. For the usual reasons. Nobody his PARENTS' age would have named their kid Dee Jay. His real name is D. J. Lake. And I just wonder what the D stands for...
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Theories
Nov 23, 2019 18:49:17 GMT -6
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Post by snoho17 on Nov 23, 2019 18:49:17 GMT -6
Here's the other thing, the age of consent has changed over the years, some states as low as 14 (gross) but 16 and 17 years was fairly common. And attitudes have also changed, this was years before Mary Kay Letourneau and Vili Fualaau. Young males sleeping with older females wasn't really looked at as abuse.
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Post by kmik on Nov 23, 2019 21:40:40 GMT -6
It's possible his real name is just DJ. My grandfather's name was OD and he had several brothers with initial names that stood for absolutely nothing.
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Theories
Dec 23, 2019 16:47:39 GMT -6
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Post by snoho17 on Dec 23, 2019 16:47:39 GMT -6
I think alot of us look at the differences/similarities between the individual murders to try and get some insight into what went down. If (and I think it's a strong assumption) Tina was dressed, with shoes on, then 3/4 were dressed as if they had been out. John and Dana were easily subdued, they allowed themselves to be tied and had no defensive wounds. Tina is apparently taken. What if she was taken as collateral? Maybe she was just supposed to be held until the killers got what they wanted? Things get rough with the boys, maybe before and after entering the house. Sue wakes up and things really go sideways. I think admin Horan makes a pretty good case about the killers having to decide what to do with Sue, and needing her quite while they decide. In the end Sue's fate is sealed and now the killers are in possession of a child they certainly cant return to the house with. IF they were so reluctant to kill Sue, I imagine killing a child would have been harder. A young girl would be easy to control and could be killed with much less violence.
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Post by Admin Horan on Dec 27, 2019 7:29:53 GMT -6
Also a good hostage. "Keep your mouths shut, boys, and Tina will be okay."
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Theories
Dec 27, 2019 19:31:11 GMT -6
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Post by snoho17 on Dec 27, 2019 19:31:11 GMT -6
So among other things to be "taken with a grain of salt" coming from Justin are parts of the timeline. If the boys were last seen headed to, or being dropped off in keddie (10:30ish?), they were in keddie for an hr-hr1/2 before entering the cabin. And then Tina according to Justin came home @10. Anybody else confirm? Her staying/not staying at Seabolts is a convoluted story now, maybe it was then as well. Like purposely, "mom I'm crashing at seabolts again." "Sorry mrs seabolt, mom wants me home tonight." Sound familiar;)
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Post by snoho17 on Dec 27, 2019 19:51:06 GMT -6
Aleli Ubongen, interesting. I'll look but was she in #8 or 9? I've always just KNOWN C and H's stories were BS. "We came to keddie at 4:30am to see if a coworker was going to work on monday" bs. "We came to keddie at 4:30am to see if a girlfriend wanted to have breakfast"? Really? No. Better than saying drug deal though. What does jive though, is their timeline, they both seem to agree on that. And why not? They were seen by someone, so they have to line themselves up with the timing, but not necessarily the story. I think they rolled into keddie after the murders. I think they were made aware and possibly got their hands dirty.
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Post by Admin Horan on Dec 28, 2019 6:06:05 GMT -6
I'd say they knew/assumed they were seen LEAVING Keddie by Jim Seabolt, who was emptying the bed of his pickup on his way to go cut firewood. But Kathy Goddu, of Livermore, told police that C and H were there "maybe Friday, maybe Saturday." And stayed about 30 minutes. Instead of Saturday. If you leave the Exxon at noon (H's truck was seen there by Donna when she dropped off the boys) and average 65 mph to Livermore, stay about 30 minutes, then average 65 mph back, you return to the Exxon about 9:00-9:30. Which is when the boys "disappeared."
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tt
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Post by tt on Feb 26, 2020 20:39:09 GMT -6
So, I haven't read through all the theories, but I have listened to the podcast no less than 25 times each. You did a really great job and I hope you plan on having more. Perhaps, you could take callers or questions. In any case, I have what I believe is a logical theory. However, I do not know all the timelines, etc. So, I read that someone from the house had made a call to James Sharp the month prior to the murders. I am assuming one of the children called him. That fact, on top of a few other things we know about what happened. Tina had been molested by a man in Quincy during their stay there. Also, Sue was not only tied up, but place in a humiliating position. Underpants shoved in her mouth, hog tied, etc. The facts as I have gathered is that James was an abusive and jealous man. Sue had dated several men, even though she was not yet divorced. I also remember that the reason the investigators didn't pursue the James Sharp as the murderer theory was because after watching him for weeks, he didn't go looking for or have Tina.
My theory is as follows:
I believe Tina was the one who made that call to her father. She was his favorite and inspite of his sexual abuse toward the her, she probably had some odd feeling of protection and safety from him. Sheila had received a lot of attention due to the pregnancy. Tina's teacher even said she didn't get the schoolwork help/attention she needed from home. She was left behind that day while the family went to Quincy. This sounds like an ongoing theme. I believe she called her father and told him of these things, along with the fact she was molested, etc. She wanted him to come and get her so she could go live with him. She probably had a plan for him to pick her up that sometime that weekend and leave with him. Whether this was going to happen secretly or perhaps James planned on telling Sue he came to get her. Anyway, that's why she didn't want to spend the night at the Seabolts. James arrives late. He and a friend drove long and far to accomplish his goal. When he got there, of course Sue wasn't going to let this happen. Then, Johnny and Dana arrive. I am sure Johnny jumped right in to attack James verbally and perhaps even postured against the men without getting physical at first. Dana tried to get out of the back door and the 'friend' stopped him by either bopping him on the head with the hammer. Dana fought to get away, so the accomplice put him in a choke hold to subdue him. He probably didn't mean to actually kill him. Military men are trained in these types of holds, etc. Anyway. Johnny probably went crazy. The men quickly and easily shut him down. By then the boys were awake I am sure. I would guess they hid in the closet from hearing the commotion and disturbance. Tina was there the whole time, probably. If she did walk out to the living room to ask what was going on, it was a farce. She knew her father was trying to take her with him. She wanted him to, but when everything went crazy and people were getting hurt and killed, she probably ran. She ran out of guilt and shame thinking it was because of her this was happening. I don't know whether they caught her, but my guess is she got somewhat away and perhaps trusted the wrong person who eventually hurt her to keep her from telling how they been abusing her, or she actually did die from exposure. Meanwhile Sue is killed. What father wouldn't just hate a mother who was no only divorcing him, dating other men, but allowing his two daughters to get taken advantage of. Tina by being molested and Sheila by getting pregnant. He meant to to humiliate her as best he could. The boys of course wouldn't say anything. Not only were they scared of the two men, who I am sure threatened them. They were probably told they would harm Tina if they didn't keep quiet. Even if Justin told Marilyn this, she would encourage him to keep quiet. She didn't know how far James' power could reach or who might come and kill them all. Both families may have been threatened by the men. "If you tell anyone, I will not only kill you, nut your entire family in front of you first." I can see why everyone would be afraid to talk. Even after all this time and even if James was in jail, no one knew if the 'friend/accomplice' was still around. They may have made Justin participate to a point also. Maybe even the Sharp boys. I also believe Casey was there and on the way back the plan was to pick him up from Cabin 28. They walked into a mess and quickly realized they would be the target of accusations and responsibility. They had to think quick. Marilyn took Casey home. He may have slept through it, not sure. The men changed clothes and went back to the bar in order to create the proper alibi. Justin probably did assist and they knew if the police realized this or found evidence of such, they would need to come up with some sort of reasonable explanation. They all knew they had to get out of the area asap. Thats why Marty both cooperated and pass the lie detector test. He didn't do it. Also, think about this. Marty supposedly went to the VA on Monday. Marilyn had left to stay with Glenna Meeks, right? Sunday night? In any case, Gleena said Marty stopped by her house on his way back from the VA. So, Marilyn was there at the same time. (I think this is right...) I just believe this take on the case covers many of the weird circumstance more than any other I have read or heard. Please give me your feedback. Perhaps piecing together some facts along with some of this theory can help solve this age-old case.
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Post by karis on Feb 28, 2020 1:32:36 GMT -6
Hello tt. I always enjoy reading different theories on the case. According to the reports we have, James Sharp was looked at. We know very little about him, his marriage to Sue, or his relationship with his kids.
This is what has been reported
This comes from the outtake of Jackie H. Sue's sister:
"When Sue came up here to live with me, she called me one day, they were in Mississippi and I guess he had kicked her out of the house. At that point and uh.. she just called me up and said, "I've got no where else to go. She took all 5 kids and got on the bus and came up here with them and stayed about a year and 1/2 with me...
Josh: Why did she move to Plumas?
"Well she had no where else to go. She had been living here for quite a while, well over a year and then her husband decided he wanted her back. So foolish enough she packed up and went back to him, and within 6 months she was kicked out of the house again. So she went to live with my brother in Keddie, in Quincy."
So according to her sister, they had not really did not live together after 1975(76) except for the 6 months she returned to live with him in Connecticut.
April 1975 - October 1976 After being kicked out Sue lived with Jackie H.
Oct. 1976 - April 1977 Sue went back to Jim for 6 months
April 1977 After being kicked out again Sue goes first to her mother in law's then on to Quincy.
From Timeline:
April 1977
After Sue left Jim Sharp, she drove to somewhere in Missouri where her mother-in-law lived. She stayed approximately 3 weeks and then came to Quincy. (Nancy Davis/Crim)
May 1977
Sue Sharp and her Children rented Space 27A at Claremont Trailer Park (formerly rented by Sue's brother, Don Davis) (Fred Bryers/Bradley)
According to Jackie's timeline I don't know how close Jim was to his wife or kids.
Jackie on finding out about the murders:
"We went down there. We stayed with Don for a week. We had to wait for Jim to come out and see what he was going to do with the kids and I had already made up my mind I was gonna take them...
"When he came I think one of the first things he said was "well I don't know what I'm gonna.." and I said "Don't worry about it. We've got them". I didn't want him to have them.
Sheila being interviewed by Crim and Bradley:
Did your mother have any personal enemies that you knew of? Sheila: She never hurt anyone.
I feel for a 14 year old girl that was probably in shock and very upset at the time, but did she mention her father? She told years later that he molested her. Did she tell the police this in 1981? Had she told Sue that?
I'm guessing that the police ruled him out but he was a very good suspect. I have wondered if he could have been the man fighting with Sue that Frank Davis reported to the police. Frank said he was about 4" taller than Sue. Sue was only 5'0(1) so the man was maybe 5'4(5). But I don't know what James Sharp looked like in 1981. I do know the picture I saw of him, he was not much taller than Sue. But who knows, I could be wrong.
Someone did call James Sharp from cabin 28 in the month before the murders. If Sheila had been molested by her father I don't think she would have called him. Greg was too young so I don't think it was him. Maybe Sue called to talk about the divorce, Sheila's baby, Johnny running away from home, or maybe Tina's alledged molestation. She could have found out about him molesting Sheila and called him to confront him about it. Or maybe Tina, his favorite called to talk to him. It could have been Ricky. I think Sheila said the boys cried and waited for their father to come and get them. Johnny? But that is just something we don't know.
I don't really think after looking at what Jackie told that James wanted Sue or the kids. After 4-5 years apart the only thing that could have caused trouble between them would have been if Sue confronted him about possibly molesting one of the girls. But that is just my opinion
This is according to Timeline A but I think it’s been established that they didn’t move to Quincy until 1979 so this might be off a year.
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tt
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Post by tt on Mar 2, 2020 17:02:58 GMT -6
Thank so much for the timeline. Sue was in such a humiliating position. It's hard to imagine anyone being that disrespectful unless they had a personal vendetta against her. I don't believe someone would go that far for a staging and I don't believe it was staged so much considering the evidence, blood stains, etc. The other point that comes to mind is I believe Justin, when describing the two men said on her own. Or, perhaps her school teacher, who was reportedly at the restaurant that night happened upon her at something about boots, military or army like? Even before I put all this together, Jim Sharp came to mind. He would have been very upset to find out his two daughters were in such a state of vulnerability and promiscuity. Any father would, even and especially the abusive ones. Tina would have run when she saw what was happening, especially if she felt she was responsible for the confrontation. Perhaps she did get away and go to that area on her own. Perhaps, her school teacher suspected of molesting her happened upon her at just that time and offered protection. He may have even been watching the cabin more than hanging out at the restaurant. You said the boys really loved and missed their father. It could help to explain further why they stayed silent.
The case is overthought and so many various timelines and lies. It is almost impossible to gain clarity. That's why looking at the results as they were literally laid out, begs the question...Why? Who? What and when. The podcast did such an amazing job at all of these.
Another theory that crossed my mind was Mr. Seabolt. What if he caught his daughter and Dana fooling around? Maybe he went off the deep end and attacked Dana. Johnny would have jumped in and then, maybe Seabolt's son got involved. This would explain Dana's pants being unzipped. Question - What type of parent lets their teenage son wonder through a house alone to see if anyone else was in there? That struck me as odd. If Seabolt was a male chauvinistic type of guy, he might be inclined to humiliate Sue in such a manner. Especially, if he blamed her for the situation in which he found his daughter. Crazy at it might sound, Marty said he didn't kill the boys. If Justin called his mother after seeing Dana and Johnny were attacked and killed, some type of misunderstanding could have lead to the murder of Sue by Marty and Bo. If Seabolt did it, it was most likely an accident killing Dana and more self defense with Johnny. Johnny was a hot head, and would have gone crazy on Seabolt, I'm sure. It seems likely Casey was staying there earlier in the evening. The plan was probably to pick him up on the way home, or maybe they heard a ruckus. (Just random thoughts....)
I would really like for the investigation to swing toward looking at James Sharp's whereabouts more closely. (Like very closely..) Time is not on the side of this investigation, so it may be impossible at this point. Hopefully, something I've proposed has hit on a solid fact or probable solution. If everyone would work together, sharing their logical, intuitive, or factual knowledge, perhaps the pieces will begin to fall into place. That's why the podcast was so brilliant. Please do another episode.
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Theories
Mar 2, 2020 19:26:55 GMT -6
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Post by raemen2 on Mar 2, 2020 19:26:55 GMT -6
I believe from the autopsy, it’s safe to say that whatever happened in the house that night, Johnny Sharp did not engage in a offensive or defensive manner with the intruder(s)/murderer (s).
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Post by kmik on Mar 2, 2020 20:48:35 GMT -6
Raeman I couldn't agree more!! According to autopsy reports neither Johnny nor Dana fought with, or defended themselves against, anyone. That is unless the Medical Examiner is to be thrown in with the cover-up and corruption. And it might have been 1981 but I'd like to think a medical examiner could determine if there was or was not blood, cuts or scratches underneath those bindings.
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tt
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Post by tt on Mar 8, 2020 21:43:40 GMT -6
Apparently Johnny was on the small side as far as size. Just because I think he attacked doesn't mean it was a fight. He either could have been subdued by someone much bigger than him quickly or held back by gunpoint. That's why it is difficult to believe this was done by kids. I just think Johnny would have actually had signs of a struggle or the house would have been messier. What do you think?
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