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Post by Kodiak on Jan 9, 2018 10:58:39 GMT -6
I'm not an expert on this case or anything else,but to my untrained eye I believe there's much more to Tina's disappearance than meets the eye,or what Justin has told.How do we know Tina was even inside the cabin while the murders took place? How do we know Tina wasn't involved in the murders? Does investigators have Tina's DNA on file? If so,has it been tested? There's Something investigators had difficulty figuring out in this case,and my guess is it involved Tina..One thing about the murders that in my opinion leans more towards there being a female and a male being responsible were the injuries sustained by the victims.The injuries sustained by the victims are not consistent with injuries two grown men that are physically strong would inflict.If Marty/Bo were responsible i imagine with their military backgrounds the injuries would have differed from what happened..If Bo had in fact had ties to organized crime,do you think for one second he would have left witnesses? That's the FIRST thing you learn in organized crime...It's organized crime 101,NEVER leave witnesses behind..The injuries sustained by the victims resembled the work of two inexperienced killers that were not organized and were rather clumsy in their attack..That's just my opinion and I may be totally wrong,who knows?
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Post by cancersucks on Jan 9, 2018 11:30:46 GMT -6
Kodiak - great post. How Tina really fits into this is a huge question. It really doesn't make sense that she was left alive or that she was driven miles away and killed when the killers left 3 other bodies.
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Post by kmik on Jan 9, 2018 14:12:23 GMT -6
Thanks Kodiak! So true who's gonna go in and murder 3, take one, and leave 3 survivors? Certainly not a "professional". Who's gonna take an air rifle and medical tape to commit murder? It's very hard to believe an adult would. The police-no doubt- were looking for the one person who was missing. Tina. She had to have been their focus early on yet we see almost NO information about someone so important. The files and reports we have give very little info of her on the last day of her life. There has to be more. Why keep all of that info silent?
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Post by cancersucks on Jan 9, 2018 14:42:18 GMT -6
That's what I thought before. Maybe Tina inadvertently started the whole thing by telling an adult (teacher, bus driver, gas attendant, etc) that Sue was so terrible to her and that person took matters into their own hands. Maybe the authorities have suspicions about an adult that Tina was close to...someone who would viciously defend her even if it meant murdering her family members.
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Post by Admin Horan on Jan 9, 2018 19:37:04 GMT -6
Well, Gamberg confirmed to me that there was zero evidence of any kind that Tina had been killed inside Cabin 28, or even murdered at all. On the other hand, he thinks the bottle hunter who found her remains "knew" where she was and that he "discovered" her on purpose.
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Post by cancersucks on Jan 9, 2018 19:39:33 GMT -6
Right. I think she left with the killer(s) willingly. How and why she ended up miles away is the question.
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Post by jmo on Jan 9, 2018 20:08:50 GMT -6
"Down by the river". Said by Justin. Has a ring of truth. Was Tina lead out by Walter? Possibly willingly?
"Walter's shoes". Mama sure makes a big deal about "Justin borrowed Walter's shoes". Over and over and over. Why? To explain why his shoes prints were there in 28? Maybe. It must have been a big relief when nothing came of that. Too much talking on her part about those damn shoes. JMO
"The only contact Walter had with Johnny was the night before at the hall" and when "Walter called Sue's around 5-6 and wanted to talk to Johnny". But, yet, Mama swore Sue was at her place until 6 or so. And, she made it a point to say goodbye to her dear, dear friend? Huh?
There's something wrong with Mama and Company's timeline. Why so little of Walter? IF Walter had anything to do with this, what would be his reason? Anger towards Johnny? Mama said it was Walter's birthday. Could he have been mad Johnny was hanging with Dana and had ditched him? So many questions concerning Walter.
Walter was born in 65. Is there any connection at all to the bottle collector? Anyone know his age? It could very well just be another wild goose chase, but, if there's a connection between any of the Meeks and Pedrini, it might just be the crack this case needs.
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Post by karis on Jan 9, 2018 20:50:25 GMT -6
JMO Walter's bday was May 11, 1965. Such a big deal has been made over Marty's "fake" bday celebration but according to Ms. Meeks, Walter was celebrating a month earlier himself.
Good point about the shoes. Everyone was so sidetracked with Marilyn asking about "the shoes" that they forget Mama said Justin had borrowed Walter's. She did claim that "Jim" said Marty was burning leaves with some shoes in them. But don't know if any of that is true.
Don't know anything much about the bottle collector except that he was around 41 years old at the time of the murders, around 44 when he discovered the skull, and is listed as having lived in Quincy, Tracy, and Livermore. The voice on the tape from Butte County sounds like someone younger but we just don't know?
Joel Lipsey did mention to police that he saw Walter and Tina one cold fall evening dancing in the Pioneer Bowl Parking lot. He also said she was closer to the Meeks kids than any other kids at school but Ms Meeks distanced her kids from Tina by posting that Tina didn't run with the "little pack" yet that is who everyone said she was close to.
I do remember it being mentioned that Walter and Johnny had some kind of altercation at the arcade on the Friday night before the murders. Richard said it must have been minor because he didn't even recall why they had the fuss.
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Post by jmo on Jan 10, 2018 19:44:58 GMT -6
Thanks karis! Hmmmm. May 11th? Why would they celebrate Walter's birthday a WHOLE month early? (According to his own mother.) I've had birthday parties that weren't on the exact date...not unusual. But, a month? I can even see celebrating a month late. "I ain't got the money right now, Kiddo, but we're sure gonna throw you a great party when I do! You betcha!" And, time keeps ticking and you're saying, "Dang. We better throw this kid a party." haha But, A MONTH EARLY?? Idk. THAT seems really weird. What were his presents I wonder. Couldn't have been an air rifle, could it? jk I looked into this "Marty's fake birthday" at one time. Did quite a bit of research on that. So....what I found is this: There was no evidence of Marty ever changing his birth date. All of his records (and they're out there) show no FAKE birthday. With the exception of one. THE ONE: It was a website (that anyone can make for anyone) through ancestry.com. SKETCHY. SKETCHY AS HELL. Now, I'm not saying that anyone would go out of their way to do this to Marty, just to push a theory, but if any one person was going to...well, let's just say his initials are David Craig McNarie. haha If anyone can find me a document that states MARTY created a fake birthday, I'd LOVE to see it. But, I stress a DOCUMENT. I do recall putting quite a bit of time into that one and it just kept leading me back in circles to that fake ancestry.com page. But, like I said, if someone can find one, I'd really like to see it. The closest I got was he lied to get a job or something at fourteen. I don't exactly recall and will have to dig around for that info. I've done genealogy for 30+ years (going back to the snail mail dark ages) and official documents are the only things to believe. Even then it's iffy. Heck, my own great, great German grandfather forgot how many children he had on the US census. lol My Swedish grandfather's first wife took their three kids to Canada and changed their names to her maiden name and left them all with her parents. I found one of the children (in her 90s still living in Canada) and she told me I couldn't exist because her mother told them (the children and her folks) my grandfather hung himself in the barn. Cheese and rice. He went on to marry and have three other children, one of them my father so I'm fairly certain grandpa didn't do no barn hanging. LOL Anyways...documents only. No fake ancestry.crap for me. :-) David called it Marty's fake birthday and that just took off like W-I-L-D-F-I-R-E. Mass hysteria at its finest. I can't believe people just take dmac's word and don't question anything. His proof was (his word YIKES!) that Marty, Marilyn, and Bo went to the bar to celebrate Marty's fake birthday. Wellll.....there was a birthday party going on there that night. Sue's brother and his wife attended that one. But, it had zero to do with Marty. Do I think MMB got dressed in their "finest" and went down for a drink that night? Yeppers. But, they weren't part of the "in" crowd that were celebrating that night. And, these disco duck outfits dmac claims they wore? Shhhheeeeet. My dad had one of those. They're more of what I call a leisure suit and they weren't hot pink and lime green either. Some of this garbage just needs to be put to bed. Nina Meek's ex Jim is another person I wonder about. I'd love to know his last name. He sure flipped in and then got the hell out of dodge fast. JMO And, she says she drove to AZ to pick him up? And, the purpose of that was ?? On to Pedrini. I don't even know what to think about that weirdo. Could he have spotted a skull prior to actually reporting it? Most of us would report something like that straight away, but who knows? Maybe he took it home and then had an oh sh*t moment and brought it back. Nothing against people who collect bottles but, who really knows? The phone call: OK. Here's where I have a problem. BECAUSE someone called in and said, "Hey, I heard a skull was found. Did you look into it being (Tina)?" That really isn't guilt in my mind. Cripe. If I heard something like that I'd probably call, too. I'm actually surprised they only got the one phone call. (Or did they?) I just can't believe it took a phone call for the police to speculate it was Tina. I'm more prone to think out of all those coppers, at least one of them was laying in bed saying to himself, "Hmmm. I wonder....". Wouldn't it be fun to find out who it was. :-) Oh Richard, Richard, Richard. Our little drama queen with all the blood on Sue's car but yet he knows nothing about Walter and Johnny and black eyes. Think back to where a lot of the stories originated and you'll find Richard's name all over them. He sure was a busy little gossip beaver. Chip off the ole block that one. JMO Does anybody have an opinion about Cabin (I think it was 15?) that was supposed to be empty and the former occupants? That's another theory I'd like to kick around.
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Post by jmo on Jan 10, 2018 21:50:48 GMT -6
Fishing through my photos and I looked at Marty's license and it dawned on me...Walter's birthday was May 11th same as Marty? Is that correct? That would make April 11th Walter's fake birthday, not Marty's. Just had to double check with you...
And, I came across a picture of Walter. His right arm is crippled but his left arm is HUGE.
Tom, does Mike have any opinion on whether the person/persons using the knife was left or right handed? Curious. I know this was kicked around for a while.
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Post by Lynnie2 on Jan 11, 2018 11:44:04 GMT -6
I believe the killers traveled from Cabin 15 and went back and forth. Karl Kautzer and girlfriend lived there...it was empty...or was it? Bartender heard voices at around 2:20 am coming from that direction. Heard a females voice...she would have been parked in parking lot across from Cabin 15. Karl Kautzer had blond hair. Blond hair found in Johnny's hand. He resembles the composite ....the eyebrows, the adams apple. Karl Spang, Wade Meeks, Steven Howard. Steven Howard and the duffle bag years later...fibers found on the fence between Cabin 28, 13 and 15. Cabin 15 has a back porch and door and easy access numerous times between the cabins...without being seen. Dmac makes a huge deal out of the clothesline being down...it was in the way. One of them probably got hung up on it and in a fit tore or cut it down. Why would Marty, Bo and Marilyn have any business back there? They didn't because they were back home in Cabin 26. I think Tina was held at Cabin 15 or was taken by James Seabolt Sr. out of Keddie...firewood my *ss and didn't hear or see anything? ?? I don't buy it. Who was seen by the Keddie store throwing something away? Phillip Shearer definitely was there that morning and sure things are foggy but what isn't in this case? So easy to say MMB did this but no evidence of them being the killers....unless you go by what everyone else has for years. Sue had info on the drugs and said something and that is why occupants were evicted and they had a score to settle....no mob hit, no money, drugs were missing all to throw the real motive.
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Post by kmik on Jan 11, 2018 14:04:51 GMT -6
And somewhere in the middle of all of this is Tina. The little girl who was told to come home or went home voluntarily. It's very unlikely she was taken, or left, to throw off any investigation. If the killer(s) had time to think that far ahead this probably would never have ended in murder. They left behind 3 survivors.
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Post by cancersucks on Jan 11, 2018 18:51:23 GMT -6
Lynnie - I've thought the same for a long time. That's why I think no one saw a vehicle leave that night - because none did. They stayed overnight in 15 (or really any other cabin) and left in the morning. That makes perfect sense. Same as the clothesline - makes perfect sense that someone traveling back and forth in the dark got hung up in it, got mad at it like I would and ripped/cut/tore it.
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Post by kmik on Jan 11, 2018 20:57:07 GMT -6
The Phillip story is interesting. The Steve Howard gym bag story is interesting. Mrs. Alvey reported the story but has since passed away but is the sister still living that actually witnessed that? Yes Karl and Frank's cabins were empty. There were fibers taken from the fence but did the fence run all the way down past 15? We don't remember. The clothesline is something that was important to 28. We don't remember it being mentioned in any reports (but we could have forgotten). 28 said Mike and Greg were also intrigued with the clothesline but we never heard that from them.
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Post by Admin Horan on Jan 12, 2018 10:21:02 GMT -6
Well, we know the green and white blazer left.
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